Tom D & Askernish

[Tom_Doak]

You say "wrong" as if that were any more obvious than "right", even though you know better.

I've made recommendations to the locals, for free, because they asked Mr. Keiser what he thought they could do to attract more outside interest.  That's their goal, because they know the course is barely staying above water with the current level of financial support.  They've also asked Martin Ebert to stay involved and to agree or disagree with anything I say.  And, presumably, they are open to free advice from other quarters as well.

I don't have a history of taking the "charm" out of property.  I think I understand the appeal of such a natural course, and how carefully any work would have to be done.  And I am not trying to add strategy ... I've told them I think they should have FEWER bunkers than the three they've got.

The only one of my recommendations which has caused alarm is asking what on earth they were thinking on the 16th green.  Maybe that was one of your favorites, since we seem to be on opposite pages here.  It just looks like a forced concept to me.

[Forrest Richardson]

No. 16 was about as "different" as you will find. I suppose it could be classified as a "favorite" of mine, but it would have an asterisk.

The reason for asking about "wrong" is that I have no trouble envisioning the outcome being "right". And, your are correct, you do not have a history of taking the charm out of a site.

At Askernish the course is coming to life (rebirth) through an interesting process. One not seen much in modern times. Unless indigenous to Askernish (the course), I think outside help is best when limited or kept at bay. To me, there is a very interesting drama unfolding. Allowing the place to evolve with the "plan" that is kept under Ralph's cap seems a perfect plot, and I am not convinced it can be bettered.

[Jud_T]

Local charm is great, local charm with repeat visits is even better.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Tom, Forrest and anyone,
Can you describe the 16th green?
Cheers

[Scott Warren]

Mike: These of 16 courtesy of James Boon.

[Adam Lawrence]

16th green: it's set high up in dunes, and there's a rampart at the front. The green has two levels, a high front and a low back. The step from front to back is big, steep, and uneven. And the front level is miniscule!

[Aidan Bradley]

Some more views of #16.......

[Garland Bayley]

Aidan,

I saw your name on the thread, and I had to look. Once again, I was elated by what I saw.

[James Boon]

Aidan,

In your photos of the 16th green, it looks as if only the top / front tier is cut as green? Was that the case, or is it just my eyes slowly going on me? I can remember going down there to putt a ball back up the slope after I'd finished the hole, so I think of it as green?

It will be interesting to see what Tom Doak comes up with?

Cheers,

James

[Forrest Richardson]

At least No. 16 is being mowed closely!  When I was there...well before Tom D ... the "green" was a concept, not quite defined, but adequately described by the locals.

I think this best describes the way I feel: Askernish is best left alone. The less of anyone from the outside having say is probably best in my opinion. I would love to return a few years from now and know that Ralph and his local bunch of confidants has been in charge...not a contingent from the "successful" golf industry from afar.

[Gary Daughters]

Forrest,

Why?

[henrye]

Looks like a brilliant green, so I see Forrest's concern.  At 440 yards, however, that looks like one tough approach/green.  Interesting dilemma.   

[Forrest Richardson]

Gary — I will take a stab at answering the "why?" question, although I am not entire certain what specifically it addresses.

For Askernish, the story and plot was drafted when some local chaps came together and hatched an idea. A few minds were gathered and it became reality. It grew. It grows. To put fertilizer on it from an outside source seems not only unnecessary, but undermines the natural evolution that has already begun.

I have no doubt that Tom D., Ree Jones, Floyd Farley (RIP), Tom Fazio, Gil Hans or Forrest Richardson could make positive contributions. But, like the fertilizer from the outside source, I am not convinced it makes for a better crop in this case. Some things are better left alone.

[Garland Bayley]

Looks like a brilliant green, so I see Forrest's concern.  At 440 yards, however, that looks like one tough approach/green.  Interesting dilemma.   

Just think of it as an easy par 5.

[James Boon]

Gary — I will take a stab at answering the "why?" question, although I am not entire certain what specifically it addresses.

For Askernish, the story and plot was drafted when some local chaps came together and hatched an idea. A few minds were gathered and it became reality. It grew. It grows. To put fertilizer on it from an outside source seems not only unnecessary, but undermines the natural evolution that has already begun.

I have no doubt that Tom D., Ree Jones, Floyd Farley (RIP), Tom Fazio, Gil Hans or Forrest Richardson could make positive contributions. But, like the fertilizer from the outside source, I am not convinced it makes for a better crop in this case. Some things are better left alone.

Forrest,

I fully understand your sentiment of leaving the locals to develop the course.

However, the origins of their idea was the old Old Tom Morris course that came from his visit 100odd years ago to set up a course, then after that course was lost it was given life again by Martin Ebert amongst others, again not local. Now I suspect that Ralph and the other small number of locals, just want the course to get better or be the best they can get it on their limited budget, so who can blame them for talking to people like Keiser and Doak who appear only to happy to help out?

Cheers,

James

[Jud_T]

Forrest,

I agree that it's a wonderful story.  But given the difficulty in getting there combined with the current economic climate for golf travel I can see that it's tough to make ends meet.  As long as Tom or whoever has the right respect for the tradition of the course and the natural nature of the place, I don't see the problem.  Maybe he's the best man for the job, and if so who cares if he hails from the moon? 

[Adam Lawrence]

Jud - that's not quite right. It's very easy for Askernish to make ends meet, because their costs are next to nothing. The issue is that the course is a precious resource that could be a spur for the economic development of the island. The challenge is to find the best way to use that resource to attract more visitors, while keeping its authenticity.

[Tom_Doak]

Adam:

It's not quite that easy.  While the budget is austere, they do have two greenkeepers on staff, and certainly the active body of 30-40 local members would have a hard time paying a living wage to those two without some outside green fees.  I'm not sure precisely what the local membership subscription is, but I'm sure it's not $1000 per year, and if you do the math that wouldn't pay the staff very much!

[Mark McKeever]

I really like the look of the green as it is in the pictures.  The uneaven fall off to the lower back side looks really neat.  Its an interesting shot to have into a long par 4.  Thats for sure.

But I like it!

Mark

[JMEvensky]

Aidan,

I saw your name on the thread, and I had to look. Once again, I was elated by what I saw.

Same here.

If Aidan started a thread with pictures of a city dump,I'd probably forward the pictures to friends.

[Mac Plumart]

Looking at those pictures, I don't get why people aren't flocking there.  It looks utterly fantastic!

[jeffwarne]

Looks like a brilliant green, so I see Forrest's concern.  At 440 yards, however, that looks like one tough approach/green.  Interesting dilemma.   

Just think of it as an easy par 5.

Garland,
exactly.
That green looks fantastic and as unique as anything I've seen.
I'd hate to see it significantly altered because it's at the end of a 440 yard hole.
perhaps there's an "easy green" on a 330 yard hole that would offset it and maintain someone's illusion of fairness.
Not criticizing any improvements, it's just cool to see holes that defy the fairness logic.
Some of my favorite holes are non driveable, easy par 4's which are certainly easier than fair, so why can't a hole be really hard and reward an extraordinary piece of skill or luck

[Adam Lawrence]

Looking at those pictures, I don't get why people aren't flocking there.  It looks utterly fantastic!

Mac - it's a long way away, the weather is vvv unreliable even by Scottish standards (ask Forrest about that!), there isn't much else there except salmon fishing... all in all it is a big commitment to go. I know the distances don't seem that great in US terms, but it's different over here. Only the real hardcore will go as things stand.

But that said, marketed properly, people will realise it is only a 45 minute flight from Glasgow and can easily be done in a couple of days. It is, in reality, no harder to get to than Machrihanish, and they get lots of visitors.

[Mac Plumart]

in reality, no harder to get to than Machrihanish, and they get lots of visitors


That is what I am saying.  (but of course I have no idea what I am talking about as I have never been there  )

But still, maybe only the hardcore go...but who else dreams of Scotland?

We all talk on this site about natural golf courses, no homes on a course, just pure golf.  Well...there it is.  Right?

I, for one, am pumped Tom Doak is associated with the course.  And he is doing his work for free?!?  C'mon Mike Keiser, Tom Doak...this can work.  Excuse the ignornace, but has Tom Doak worked on a Tom Morris course before?  If not, another great angle.  Great new school architect meets great old school architect.

And in regards to Forrest's point of Tom not screwing up the course, really?  Really?  I can't believe he is going to ruin the course.  But let's say he screws up and a green or two isn't as good.  Oh well, at least Keiser and Doak's names are associated with the course and it will get more press and maybe more people will go.  It sounds like they want to get more people to go to the course.  Would you take a course that is 95% as good as it was with 300% more visitors or 100% as good with 0% more visitors?  I know my answer.

Anyway, again, I don't know crap about the business model for Askernish or what Tom D is going to do at the course or what the course even needs.  But I do know what it is and why I want to go, package this bad boy up with those other Old School courses in Scotland and make it part of a package deal for golfers to tour and play these gems (Askernish, The Machrie, Prestwick, N. Berwick) and it just might make the travel less of an issue...in fact, hell make it part of the "experience".  Also, isn't there a really good distillery there?  My business partner is BIG into Scotch and when I told him where I was going next year, he about fell out of his chair prior to getting me his list of items for me to buy for him while over there.

Ugh...I can't stop rambling.  Bottom line...you've got a gem there.  Don't be afraid to tell people about it and charge a bit more.

 

[Adam Lawrence]

in reality, no harder to get to than Machrihanish, and they get lots of visitors

Anyway, again, I don't know crap about the business model for Askernish or what Tom D is going to do at the course or what the course even needs.  But I do know what it is and why I want to go, package this bad boy up with those other Old School courses in Scotland and make it part of a package deal for golfers to tour and play these gems (Askernish, The Machrie, Prestwick, N. Berwick) and it just might make the travel less of an issue...in fact, hell make it part of the "experience".  Also, isn't there a really good distillery there?  My business partner is BIG into Scotch and when I told him where I was going next year, he about fell out of his chair prior to getting me his list of items for me to buy for him while over there.

Mac - no distillery in Uist so far as I'm aware. Machrie and Machrihanish are the places to go for golf and whisky - Springbank in Campbeltown is great, the shop in town is worth a visit from anyone. And Greg Ramsey, who originally conceived Barnbougle Dunes, is trying to get a distillery at Kingsbarns off the ground - that will be cool if it happens (you might have seen some ambush marketing for it on the West Sands of St Andrews during the Open)