Tom D & Askernish

[Aidan Bradley]

Askernish #7 Tee Box



Askernish #7 Green

[Ulrich Mayring]

Raising greenfees is all fine and well, but to do so only for overseas visitors would IMHO be a big mistake. First, there are the logistics - how to make sure who is overseas and who isn't? Will you do it on nationality or accent? Am I overseas, coming from Germany? Are the Irish? Or is it just Americans, who have to pay more? But what if they live in Scotland? This "finding out what price you have to pay" could become extremely awkward for the staff and make visitors feel less than welcome.

I am talking from experience, because we have a scheme here in Germany, where we are divided into first, second or third class golfers, depending on the club we belong to and the membership dues we pay. And some German clubs charge higher greenfees to second and third class golfers. The result is that many of them won't ever go to play at these clubs. Even if the price difference is just 5 or 10 quid, it makes you feel second tier and unwelcome.

What I would do is not sell greenfees, but memberships. Put the yearly membership price at what you would like the greenfee to be. It might encourage some visitors to stay longer or return later in the year. And THAT would be the boost that the local community needs. All others, who just want to play a once in a lifetime round, at least get a memorable member's badge to display on their bag. Which will lead to their playing partners asking what the hell Askernish is ...

Ulrich

[Mac Plumart]

Ulrich...

Truly brilliiant idea!!!

I want my badge!!!

And look at those picture that Aidan posted.  Looks worth more than 25 pounds to me.

[Mark Chaplin]

Askernish is £125 for country membership.

Ulrich several Scottish clubs discount for locals, you usually have to be a member of a Scottish Golf Union Club. Castle Stuart do a locals greenfee with proof of address - driving licence, etc.

[David_Tepper]

Does anyone have a ballpark idea of how many visitor rounds courses like the Machrie and Machrihanish get each year?

I really wonder if Askernish is simply too remote to attract enough visitors regardless of how good the course is and regardless of what the green fees are. There are so many worthwhile courses on the British mainland that it is competing against.   

[jeffwarne]

Does anyone have a ballpark idea of how many visitor rounds courses like the Machrie and Machrihanish get each year?

I really wonder if Askernish is simply too remote to attract enough visitors regardless of how good the course is and regardless of what the green fees are. There are so many worthwhile courses on the British mainland that it is competing against.   

I'm a bit conflicted on this one.
I've attempted to work the logistics of Askernish into the last few trips I've taken, and certainly now i want to get there sooner rather than later.
I'd much rather face the rough 1800 like conditions as a novelty item for a few days but I certainly can't begrudge a club and community the desire to become prosperous as a result of improvement.
While I do worry that it will simply become another Machrie/Machrihanish (hardly a bad thing), I also wonder if even improved there's much of a market there, in fact I wonder if their current low expense/low revenue model isn't the most practical.

When the premier architect and course critic in the world gives such glowing praise, it certainly does lend enormous credibility.
That said, I'd be disappointed if I pulled up to a circus scene like Ballybunion in the late 90's

[Scott Warren]

A few questions for those who have played Askernish.

How much more natural / rustic / "blanketed over the natural land" is it than Brora?

How does the conditioning compare?

[Mark Chaplin]

Scott - I understand the conditioning is rustic.

[James Boon]

A few questions for those who have played Askernish.

How much more natural / rustic / "blanketed over the natural land" is it than Brora?

How does the conditioning compare?

Scott,

For me both Askernish and Brora are pretty similar in how they are "blanketed over the natural landscape" (quite like that expressions actually)

I'm sure some would see Brora as pretty rustic. As you know, being maintained by the local sheep, but the rough edges that would have been there when the courses was first being played have had plenty of years to be knocked off. Also the rustic aspect doesnt aply to the greens due to the elctric fences. Askernish on the other hand is Rustic with a capital R, but thats because the playing surfaces only have a few years conditioning behind them, to Brora's 100 odd years. It really is like going back in time to see what a course would have been like when an old Tom Morris or other early architect created their courses.

When I met Ralph Thompson and the greenkeeper Alan (?) they were passionate about having a really great quality course up there. They certainly have a great layout but the dilema they have up there is that in its current condition its almost a museum piece, and only ever going to be able to attract a small green fee and limited visitor numbers. But while this has managed to get them plenty of publicity so far, what I'm sure the locals want is a course in good condition, regardless of oversees visitors expectations.

The other dliema for me is that The Outer Hebrides are a fantastic escape, a place for getting away from it all in a very wild but beautiful landscape. That what attracted my wife and I to the islands, not just the golf. But this also means there aren't great transport connections and a mass of great hotels. And on that basis, I find it difficult to think that they could justify a larger green fee than the current £25. Maybe more oversees visitors could be attracted to purchase lifetime memberships or similar, keeping the greenfee low for everyone else?

Cheers,

James

[Tom_Doak]

James:

That is basically the logic behind my recommendation.

Locals (Scots) are not going to keep coming back unless the green fee seems a bargain -- not much more than 25 pounds.  So we'd keep it there for them.

They've sold about 75-100 memberships to overseas visitors, but they would sell far more if the membership = 2.5 green fees instead of 5 green fees.  So if the overseas green fee is 50 pounds, more people may buy a membership and stay longer; whereas if it's 25, they are likely to play one or two rounds and move on.  At least that's the way I visualize it.

[Niall C]

Scott

Askernish is probably very much like new courses when built a hundred odd years ago, I say probably because I haven't seen it and clearly I wasn't around 100 years ago. The difference is probably that with Brora is that it has over a century of foot traffic going over it to "harden" the ground up and smooth out the rough/sandy patches.

Jeff

I note your comments on Ballybunion which is another one I haven't been to yet but what you say about it turning into a commercial concern strikes a note. I really can't see the club getting on unless it has member support and that comes from the local community. Its not about business plans and its not about increasing your income, its about following the traditional club model of determine how many members you can attract, how much in subs that brings in and cut your cloth accordingly. If that means they carry on with a wooden hut for a clubhouse and a basic greenkeeping regime then thats what you do. Thats how the vast majority of clubs in this country exist and indeed prosper. Visitor fees are just a bonus.

On the question of visitor fees I still subscribe to the traditional notion that when you pay your green fee that makes you a member of the club for the day and entitled to use all the facilities etc. To charge different rates seems to go against that tradition somehow in that it emphasises the commercial aspect of the transaction. Not sure if that makes sense to anybody but there you go.

Niall 

[henrye]

2 points.
1. Where is Sean Arble?  This course looks right up his alley - no bunkers in the pics.  Are there many (any) on the course?
2. TomD: Are the changes you're suggesting to #7 because the ball bounces into the fescues?  I mean, you mention that the ball could end up anywhere due to the uneven ground on the approach.  That sounds like an attractive proposition on its surface, unless the position is too penal that it results in the ball becoming essentially unplayable.  From the pics, that would suggest the ball bounces into the very long grasses.  Is there a case to be made to leave the uneven ground, but cut back the fescue in the area surrounding the landing such that at least the ball bounces into a playable position?

[Tom_Doak]

Henry:

That was a bit of hyperbole on my part ... it's just that the front of the green comes to a point and the approach is abrupt, so it's hard to hit an approach that winds up on the green.  If you land just short it lands into the bank and either stops or kicks sharply to either side; if you fly it on the green with a long club, it doesn't hold.  We are just hoping to make the green more accepting of a run-up shot, considering it's a 440-yard par-4.

[henrye]

Got it.  Thanks.

[Gary Gruber]

I was over at Askenish a few weeks ago, it is indeed rustic but very much playable, I thought it added something to the experience too. As they gain more control over the rabbits that alone will make a significant difference.

I'm also not so sure the green fees are still at £25, although Ralph will be a better man to confirm this.

[Simon Holt]

My two pennies worth.

Membership at £75.  I love golf, I love going to out there places but even as someone who lives in Scotland, I doubt I would be going all that way to play there.   I would however pay £75 a year to be a member just to say I was!!  If I went great, if I didnt they got money for nothing and I probably wont miss £75 too much knowing that it is going to a good cause.  I would spend that on beer some weekends
If I did go the I would make up for all the rounds they owed me!!!

Maybe if it was more expensive there might be an 'allure'....I dont like that route on this occassion though.  If they were to do that I would ramp it over time- let people have a taste then go super high end??? Nah, still dont like it.


Tom et al who have been there. 

Does the 7th have a feel of the 9th at Maidstone?  Cant quite see what happens up by the green but the tee shot with the ocean on the right gives it that feel in the pic.

[Ralph Thompson]

Mac

If you need any help organising your trip from St Andrews to Uist then get in touch with me and I will advise you of all the options open to you.  Old Tom Morris travelled by horse / cart / boat to get here but we have moved on a wee bit since then. Depending on how long you want to take to come here, and if you want to admire the fantastic West coast Scottish scenery on the way then I will give you a few different routes.

Ulrich

Your idea of pushing the country memberships is exactly what we are trying to do. The cost of a full day ticket this season is £50 with a discounted rate of £35 for members of Uk clubs. The country membership is available for £100 and if you therefore are going to play more than twice it is a great deal. Most of the players ( especially from the US) who have come for a couple of days have taken out the membership. as you so rightly suggest this encourages them to return and also to have " bragging rights." A membership form is available for download off our website www.askernishgolfclub.com and any funds generated from these memberships are used to improve the course conditions. Our financial difficulties are well documented and all work done for the golf club/ course ( apart from our two greenkeepers) is done on a voluntary basis which for us all has been a "labour of love."

We had a very mild winter past and the course is in the best condition it has ever been. Mike Keiser,Tom Doak, Martin Ebert and the very few "experts" whom we rely on for advice all agree that minor works are required to "soften" some approaches to greens and to make some of the greens more holdable. We will carry out these works during this winter thanks to the generosity and support of this band of links enthusiasts who all appreciate that Askernish could be the equal of any existing links course.

[Daryl David]

Ralph,

I think you are right on point with the memberships.  I believe there is a small but enthusiastic element of golfers in the States that would join just to help with the effort even if they could not get over to Askernish for a few years.  Not as a charity donation, but more of a feeling of preserving history and fighting the good fight for links golf.  Having Tom and Mike K. informally involved will certainly help generate some interest.

Now if you get some real cool bag tags....................

[Mac Plumart]

Ralph...

I will be back in touch when I get my agenda totally lined up.  And I would be interested in a membership for sure.

I am looking forward to meeting you and seeing the course.

Mac

[Melvyn Morrow]

New Link

http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100803/BUSINESS/708039958

Melvyn

[Forrest Richardson]

Tom D. — What if you are wrong?

[Tom_Doak]

Wrong about what?

[Forrest Richardson]

Wrong about your suggestions about Askernish. What if what you suggested is not ideal?

[Tom_Doak]

Which suggestions, exactly?

And, what if I am right?

Have you ever been there yourself?  When I was driving around the island with Ralph Thompson, he said several times that he would love to have a dollar for every opinion about Askernish posted by someone who's never been there.

[Forrest Richardson]

Yes, I was at Askernish about 1.5 years before you. I walked and played the "course", and felt it's destiny was up to the locals. My take was that most anything anyone of "expertise" ever tried to part on the place would likely take away from the charm. So, I am surprised at the suggestions...although, I agree with the commen sense notion to make the tees bigger. That has nothing to do with strategy.

Maybe your comments about some of the greens are spot on. Time will tell. I was just wondering whether there is any question whether your particular suggestions could be wrong.

(P.S.    On this site you are usually right...      )