Tom D & Askernish

[David_Tepper]

"It is, in reality, no harder to get to than Machrihanish, and they get lots of visitors."

Adam -

I certainly do not want to discourage anyone from visiting Askernish, but, unless you are flying, Askernish is way harder to get to than Machrihanish.  

Remember, you can now take the passenger ferry from Troon to Campbletown that takes little over 1 hour. http://www.kintyreexpress.com/

DT

[Adam Lawrence]

"It is, in reality, no harder to get to than Machrihanish, and they get lots of visitors."

Adam -

I certainly do not want to discourage anyone from visiting Askernish, but, unless you are flying, Askernish is way harder to get to than Machrihanish.  

DT

Yes, but David: virtually everyone who goes to Askernish is going to fly. You would be nuts to do it any other way (unless it's part of a much longer Hebridean holiday). I realise plenty go to Machrihanish by road or ferry, but that is going to take a lot longer than flying to Uist.

[Melvyn Morrow]

In this modern day Askernish may seem to have a problem in just getting there.

Boy, oh boy, so much for the modern golfer with all his/her fast boats, planes and not forgetting carts.

Yet an old man of 70 - very old for the Victorian age managed to travel to the island without moaning or complaining, designed a course then went up to Stornoway to see the then recently new course just opened before returning home to St Andrews.

What does that say about the modern golfer.  


Melvyn

 

[David_Tepper]

"What does that say about the modern golfer?"

Absolutely nothing!

[Carr Harris]

Melvyn,

How do you know he wasn't moaning or complaining? Is there a written account of what great spirits Old Tom was in as he set out on his journey to route the course?

In fact, if he was anything at all like his descendant, he was probably bitching the entire way 

[Mac Plumart]

My apologies for continued posting on this thread.

This course has caught my fancy.  I don't know jack about it and have no real idea what I am talking about, but I feel it in my bones that this thing could be amazing if handled correctly.

I'll do my best not to post on here again as you all know my point of view.

Tom D...thanks for getting involved with Askernish.  From an ignorant outsiders opinion, it seems like a pretty darn good fit.


EDIT...on the distilleries; where is Ardmore and Ardbeg in relation to Askernish?  I thought they were close.

[Colin Macqueen]

I wonder if Samuel Johnson, in the 1770s, “was moaning and groaning” as he travelled through the Hebrides with Boswell. He did his fair bit of moaning and groaning so much so that he wrote
"The noblest prospect which a Scotchman ever sees, is the high road that leads him to England"

It would have been a different story if Askernish had been in existence!

Colin

[David_Tepper]

"EDIT...on the distilleries; where is Ardmore and Ardbeg in relation to Askernish?  I thought they were close."

Mac -

The Arbdeg distillery is on the isle of Islay, west of the Kintyre Peninsula. There is ferry service (not too far from Machrihanish!) between the two.

The Ardmore distillery is in the Speyside region of Scotland. The Spey River is located about 2/3's of the way between Aberdeen & Inverness and runs north/south.

Neither is especially close to Askernish/South Uist.

DT   

[Mac Plumart]

Well at least I had the right country!!   

[Andrew Summerell]

How many Old Tom courses have evolved over the years in a positive way as locals or outsiders suggest & instigate changes for the better?

Should Askernish be aloud to evolve beyond the point it has so far?

[Tom_Doak]

Andrew:

It is GOING to evolve beyond its present form, whether any architect has anything to do with it or not.

It's either going to evolve, or it's going to go away.  Maintenance and golfer traffic changes things.  I understand [from experience] that it is a very cool experience for people to see it before any of that happens, but it isn't sustainable, in any sense of the word.  If it doesn't get a bit more play and a bit more maintenance, it will go to ground again, just as it did 75 years ago.

[Andrew Summerell]

Andrew:

It is GOING to evolve beyond its present form, whether any architect has anything to do with it or not.

It's either going to evolve, or it's going to go away.  Maintenance and golfer traffic changes things.  I understand [from experience] that it is a very cool experience for people to see it before any of that happens, but it isn't sustainable, in any sense of the word.  If it doesn't get a bit more play and a bit more maintenance, it will go to ground again, just as it did 75 years ago.

That's my point Tom. It is going to evolve, just like every other course, especially links courses. A few on this thread have given the impression that they don't want it evolve, but surely it is better for the course to evolve & do so with expert advice like yourself.

It's great for people to say it's like playing a 19th century course, but what is a 19th century course? All the better courses in the late 1800's were at different stages in their evolution.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Andrew

A 19th Century course or one little changed from Old Tom day can be found at Bridge of Allan (http://www.bofagc.com/ ) and I believe Glasgow Killermont ( http://www.glasgowgailes-golf.com/killermont.asp ) is much as he designed it. There are some more but at least you have an example or two. Collieston near Cruden Bay stayed more or less the same since 1900 until the MOD closed it in 1939/40

Evolve is an interesting word as it explains nothing yet conveys much change. Is it not possibel to evolve at a slow rate, of course it is thats why we have many things in these islands that date back centuries including courses by Old Tom.

Nature hold or slows down change in some cases but speeds up evolution in other areas. As for Askernish, the magic is in what you see and how it plays.  Adjustment is fine but will the Hickory player also be happy with the minor changes. Lets give Askernish a chance to settle before we start playing with the course, but then lets not forget Tom has a good name when it comes to mods.

Please do not get confused thinking that a cart track and cllubhouse with a kitchen makes a good course, thats not our way, the golf comes first. We don't like toys with our game as we believe that if you are going to play golf then GOLF it is.

Melvyn

[Andrew Summerell]

Melvyn, thanks for your response, although I think you have misinterpreted what I said.

If you think that I believe a cart path, a clubhouse & a kitchen makes a good golf course then you don’t know me too well.

My point is that change happens, so it might as well be done carefully by someone who knows what they are doing. Even Killermont has been modernised twice, but I’m sure the changes were done carefully to keep the essence of what Old Tom designed.

I’ve played most of the links courses throughout Scotland, from big to small – famous to unknown, & they all have changed over the years. Some for the better & some not so. This is no difference to the changes Allan Robertson & Old Tom made to The Old Course. The changes I’m talking about with regards to Askernish I would expect to be small & of need, like the suggestion made about larger tee areas.

Of course, since being rediscovered the course has already changed from what Old Tom designed, so how much change is too much or not enough. I would hope that those involved with Askernish would have a mindset that understands change, even if it is to say no to certain changes, because when changes do happen, they want them to be the right ones. From what I’ve read, it sounds like they have a good mindset for the job at hand, having spoken to the right people like yourself & Tom Doak. I’m sure it will move along at the right pace & become the golf course it should be.

I look forward to playing it & spending some time in the area when I am next in Scotland.

[Tom_Doak]

Melvyn:

Have you been to Askernish yet?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

The answer to your question is yes but that was 2006. But not to see Ralph - did see the old honest box.

I was at Oban looking for their original course (an Old Tom design) then the wife and I decided to check out the Cathcart course on South Uist while staying at Oban as I knew about an 18 hole course on South Uist. Ditto Islay but found Old Tom's course on that island which as I have said was not Machrie.

Askernish was I suppose being found at the time I was there. I only learnt about Askernish when watching the BBC TV Open Uni show called Coast. That’s when I contacted Ralph who I have yet to meet. I was due to attend the Opening in 08 with Ernie and his Challenge but work stopped me. No I have not seen the new Askernish course but know the old and just love the island. The conditions were calm sunny with a steady breeze when we were, reminded me of the West Sands at St Andrews. with an on shore breeze.

I think I mentioned some of this in an earlier e-mail, but as I do not seem to get a response from you - I expect they never got to you.

Melvyn

   

[Tom_Doak]

Melvyn,


Thanks.  There are currently 568 messages in my in box, dating back a few months.  I need to hire someone to help me keep up.

[Niall C]

"I was at Oban looking for their original course (an Old Tom design) then the wife and I decided to check out the Cathcart course on South Uist while staying at Oban as I knew about an 18 hole course on South Uist. Ditto Islay but found Old Tom's course on that island which as I have said was not Machrie."

Melvyn

A bit off topic but the course at Oban you were looking for, was that the Ganavan Sands course ?

Niall

[Melvyn Morrow]

 Hi Niall

The original course moved but can't remember if its went to or from GS course it did not move far.

Old Tom designed the first 9 hole and was there for the Opening. I have some articles somewhere about the details and when I was there I was able to find someone who knew the site of the his original course. As its now moved from its original site I have not done any more work on it - well as yet. So I am thinking back some 4 years. Thats all I can recall until I check my database,  my hard copies which are in a mess.

Hope that helps

Melvyn

[Niall C]

Melvyn

There is a second course at Oban, the name of which escapes me presently (Glencruiten ?). The Ganavan Sands course certainly predates it. Up until the 1920's the Ganavan Sands course was 9 holes and MacKenzie was quoted in a newspaper report from the early 1920's as saying he had done a design for an additional 9 holes. I haven't seen anything to say that the club went ahead with building the second nine. At some point the course fell into disuse and part of it now has been given over as a shinty park. In fact I seem to recall seeing a newspaper report saying that they played the Commanachd final there back in the 20's when the course was still going.

I took a drive down to see what I could see and a number of old green and tee sites are still visible but hard to see where MacK could have fitten in his second nine that comfortably. I'd be interested to see what you have about the original course and its moving.

Niall

[Melvyn Morrow]

Niall

Found one of the articles dated 29.04.1890 re the Opening of the new 9 hole course at Oban



I have more but not got my hand on them yet but as you can seeits the opening of the new Oban course 1 mile out of town. If I remember correctly then the courses are neat to each other. I think from memory the old one is now a caravan park but no certain it may be a retail park.

Melvyn

[Forrest Richardson]

Aidan — Thanks for posting the pictures. Much easier to look at your work than to describe the 16th green! I scratched my head, but came away feeling as if I had seen something truly interesting and new. It is interesting that it may be softened — I doubt that thought was getting much traction until outside visitors and experts arrived.

Tom D. — "[it may] ... go to ground again, just as it did 75 years ago..."  Well, maybe. But, as I recall it was a WII airfield that did the course in. So, we cannot say it was fully for a lack of play. Let us pray there is no need again for an airfield at Askernish to support a war.

If I were in charge I would coach Ralph on becoming the "Fownes of Sout Uist." To me, that could be the best advice he has ever received. Watch people play, enjoy their company, run the show along with your small circle of locals. If opportunity presents itself, create a green even more controversial than the 16th......repeat as necessary.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I don't know that I've ever read one architect publically criticize another in the way Forrest goes after Tom. It seems someone involved at Askernish asked Tom to come have a look? Tom makes a few suggestions, and Forrest thinks the suggestions are wrong and Tom should've never been asked to have a look in the first place?

Wow, business must be getting really tough.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I dont really know if Askernish can ever work, but it kinda needs a package wherby you get 2 rounds of golf, a nights B&B, a real great dinner some great South Uist hospitality... parties of say 36 at a time and flight from the regional UK airports for not more than £199. Good advertising and I think you could pick up £7164 gross per week, you could probably triple this. What are the hotel/ board capacitys. Askernish is only an hour from most UK regionals as a direct flight on a small plane, but probably a day but current methods. The location seems the biggest minus could something like this be achieved?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Gentlemen (including Adrian)

Before anyone does anything at Askernish, I hope they have had the opportunity to look at Old Tom courses, holes and fairways before suggesting that changes should be made. Gordon Irvine is aware of the way Old Tom worked and thanks to his good offices opened the window to the world re Askernish. He was ably supported by the rest of the team including Martin Ebert, our own Adam Lawrence, not forgetting the main Team members The Islanders themselves.

As I respect Tom and Forrest abilities I wonder if perhaps its not just a little too quick to make changes.  Are those changes based upon comments from other golfers who have played the course or just highlighted by Tom (on his first visit) who is looking at the bigger picture – he quite rightly is considering the potential world market. Whatever, should we not allow some settlement, if the Green in question is considered new to the modern players then why change it. Let it be a quirk (as many love to call them).

The Course is a Scottish course and therefore MUST be allowed to play that way. It may not be refined and manicured as some might like but then why have they travelled half way round the world to play at Askernish.

Gentlemen, caution is called for, the current course is the result not of amateurs but of golfers ably assisted by some of the most competent professionals in their field i.e. Gordon, Martin and the Team of South Uist Golfers who know their environment better than anyone else.

Know your product, know your industry, know your Client, but most of all understand what is trying to be created/achieved. Perhaps a coming together of minds around a table may ultimately offer the way forward, allowing an understanding for all the suggestions.

OK glad that’s sorted, my house, tomorrow night say 7.30pm oh and bring a bottle (nothing less than 15 years old – Tom that’s not how long you have had it but how long it remained in the barrel).

Melvyn

Adrian

Good to see we are on the same lines  - hope thats not an insult . Let's not forget Family Packs by Ferry too