Tom D & Askernish

[George Pazin]

A Scottish friend emailed me this link, thought others might find it interesting. I didn't get a chance to read much, but it does mention on page 2 "A programme of green improvement works are currently ongoing under the guidance of Tom Doak".

Just thought some would find it interesting and wondering if anyone knows anything further.

[Jason McNamara]

Uh George, about that link...  :-)

[Ronald Montesano]

Ha ha ha...about that link...now that's a great mid-day laugh.

Try here:  http://www.storasuibhist.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Askernish-Job-Pack.pdf

Jason, there's this search engine called Google that, if you type in the quote, does some hocus-pocus and finds you the source.

[George Pazin]

Man, you guys want everything....

Thanks, Ron, that's the link.

[Jason McNamara]

Ha ha ha...about that link...now that's a great mid-day laugh.

Try here:  http://www.storasuibhist.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Askernish-Job-Pack.pdf

Jason, there's this search engine called Google that, if you type in the quote, does some hocus-pocus and finds you the source.

As this is George's thread, I will simply note that the search won't find the right site if run on Yahoo or Bing.  (Yes I use both, and Google, during the course of a day.)

Also, I offer the text version for anyone who can't do PDFs.
http://tinyurl.com/2celgtk

[Jud_T]

I'd love to hear Tom chime in on this.....

[Brad Tufts]

Looks like they had 1500 candidates on this site ready and able to handle the job...

Until the line about reading, speaking, and writing in Gaelic...

[Tom_Doak]

I was up at Askernish for three days back in March, and wrote about it a bit back then.  It's a wonderful course, wonderful people, and a terrific story.

I went at the behest of Mike Keiser, who has offered to put a little bit of money into improving the course, if we could all agree on the best use of funds.  Mike and I are generally on the same page there, that some of the key greens are a bit bumpy and random and could use some minor shaping to make them more playable, so that American visitors would be more likely to sing its praises.  I think it is being undersold now, that it's a much better golf course than most commentators have stated, and reinforcing that would be the key to getting more people to visit. 

I also suggested that the tees be enlarged or that more tees be built, as the ones I saw were so small that they were being destroyed even from the present amount of traffic.

We've shared these ideas with the locals and gone around a couple of times with the details, and it is likely that Eric Iverson (who went with me this spring) will be back there in October to proceed with most of the work we outlined.  Martin Ebert has also been in the loop on everything, as the last thing we want is to take away any of the credit from him or Gordon Irvine.  They and the locals did all of the hard work ... we are just suggesting some subtle changes so that Americans will be more likely to make return visits and pad the club's coffers.

Our basic outline for the work is to soften the greens on holes 4, 7 and 16; to soften the approach on number 11 (where I saw five balls down the road to the left in two rounds!); and possibly to build new greens on the sixth hole (Eric's suggestion) and the seventeenth (Martin's idea).  The work to #4 and #7 would be fairly subtle, #16, not so subtle!

[Steve Salmen]

Tom,

What would you do to make 16 play more fair?  When I was there it played downwind.  I dropped a few balls and tried to fly shots to the upper location and also run them up the hill.  Nothing I hit was close to successful.

Would it play as a good punchbowl green if you made it less severe and used a very tall flagstick?

[Mark Chaplin]

How long before the place is destroyed by £150 greenfees, a large hotel and carts?

[Tom_Doak]

How long before the place is destroyed by £150 greenfees, a large hotel and carts?

Mark:

That wouldn't even happen after Hell froze over.

However, we have encouraged them to raise the green fees on overseas visitors, partly to make the non-resident membership more attractive, and partly because people who are spending hundreds of pounds to get there could easily afford a few more pounds to play.

I can't imagine that Askernish would ever attract enough visitors to justify the investment in a large hotel.  And they aren't going to have carts, any more than any other links will.

[Jason McNamara]

But that area is much closer to The Donald's ancestral home.   


Tom, so will it just be tees and greens?

[Mark Chaplin]

Tom - I am slightly tongue in cheek but rising prices do lead to rising expectations. It is a difficult balance to keep a Scottish village course and appeal to high end visitors. Machrihanish did it well with the clubhouse being the focal point of the village, but no 12" shower heads and grills.

[Niall C]

Tom

To what level are you recommending that they put the green fees up to ? This might sound selfish and to an extent it is but I would suggest that a visiting player from Scotland would pay less than an American who has already incurred the major cost of his trip. My point being I bet comparative courses like Machrie and Machrihanish get more money out of Scottish visitors in total than they do out of visiting Americans so you certainly don't want to price the Scots out the market.

Niall

[Mac Plumart]

When I go to Askernish in May of 2011 is the course going to be under construction?

[Steve Salmen]

The green fee at Askernish is 25 GBP for the day.  I don't think anybody's getting priced out of that market any time soon, considering the amount of effort it takes to get there in the first place.  It takes the same time to get from Chicago to Glasgow as it does from Dornoch to Askernish.

[Tom_Doak]

Mac:

In May of 2011 there might be a couple of temporary greens, or they might be back on them and good to go, depending on the winter & spring weather.


Niall:

We've encouraged them to raise the green fees on OVERSEAS visitors, not UK visitors ... much like Mr. Keiser's program which gives Oregon residents a discount to Bandon Dunes.  [The Bandon discount is only available during the off-season now, because the course is so crowded in the summers, but that's unlikely to be the case at Askernish anytime soon.]

I appreciate that no one on this board wants to see the green fees rise too much, but the only goal really is to try and make the course operate in the black.  They are currently operating on a shoestring [a maintenance crew of TWO GUYS, neither of whom makes enough to live on], they rely partly on donated equipment, and even at that the locals are on the hook for any cost overruns.  The course has got to be self-sustaining, and that means either more people have got to get up there every summer, or they've got to charge more to those who do.  Or else, there won't be a course for you to visit.

[Niall C]

The green fee at Askernish is 25 GBP for the day.  I don't think anybody's getting priced out of that market any time soon, considering the amount of effort it takes to get there in the first place.  It takes the same time to get from Chicago to Glasgow as it does from Dornoch to Askernish.

Steve,

You might not have noticed but Dornoch is hardly the centre of the universe either. The majority of Scots are potentially going to be coming from the central belt ie broadly the corridor between Glasgow and Edinburgh where the bulk of the population is, and they are likely to be there to play one game of golf so its the overall cost that counts. For instance both the Machrie and Machrihanish do packages where you can fly from Glasgow airport and back in a day for £149 and £139 incl. the golf. What the clubs get out of that I don't know. My point being that if the cost of the round is only part of the cost. In a much larger trip any additional cost is easier to absorb.

Tom

Thanks for that. Not sure I agree with the two tier green fee structure even though I'm a beneficiary of it. While I recognise the club/course, like all clubs/courses, has to pay its way I hope they do that by focusing on keeping a handle on costs rather than assuming that they can get away with a green fee hike. In saying that I also recognise that they undoubtedly work on a shoe string as it is.

For what its worth theres not many Scottish visitor fees less than £25 these days although there are some.

Niall

[Mac Plumart]

Raise the fees!!!!  25 pounds for a round of golf.  Too low!  And yes, I realize I am coming out there soon and I am only hurting my own pocket book, but this course means too much to see it hurt itself by not wanting to charge an appropriate fee and struggle on the money front.

Here is the issue I am having...I am trying to get from St. Andrews to Askernish and I am having issues figuring out how I am going to get there.  I am piecing together ideas and figuring out the best between cars, trains, planes, boats, and (seriously) helicopters. 

Here is my suggestion...set up an all inclusive golf outing/trip.  Include in the basic package round trip transportation to and from all the hot spot tourist areas.  Add an extra layer to the package to include lodging, it doesn't matter where the lodging is but the idea is to make getting to and from there easy and give golfers a place to stay.

If after a few years you get enough money in your coffers to build a clubhouse with a room or two that would be awesome.  But don't be afraid to offer multiple tiers on fees.

One basic package...get there on your own, pay a green fee, and get yourself home (or to your hotel).

Another package with transportation to and from.

And a third package with lodging included.

Hell, maybe a fourth package that includes this course as part of a "old world" tour...THe Machrie, Askernish, Musselburgh, North Berwick, Prestwick.  Make it really high end and charge a HUGE fee, but give the golfer all that would ever want...golf, transportation, food, lodging, and a sense they are special.  Look at the St. Andrews Old Course packages.  So expensive they will numb your mind, but evidently they are selling those packages.

Any way, 2 cents from someone who is going there next May.

[Scott Warren]

this course means too much to see it hurt itself by not wanting to charge an appropriate fee

Aside from the fact it would be a shame to see any course close, why does Askernish mean so much?

[Tom_Doak]

Mac:

Maybe you should apply for the position that was advertised at the start of this thread.

Ralph Thompson has explored the possibility of a golf & airfare package with the airline that serves the Glasgow to Benbecula route ... but has not had much success so far.

I love your idea of the Old World tour, and the courses you selected, but I doubt there is much of a market for it.  St. Andrews charges as much as they do because they have been very successful at limiting SUPPLY in a place where there is already a lot of demand.  Everyone wants to play The Old Course, so they can make you jump through hoops to be sure you do.

[Mac Plumart]

You know Scott taking into account what Tom just said, maybe I am the only one who feels this way.  Or more likely, I am in the vast minority.

Here are some of the reasons why I feel this course is extra special...

All taken from thsi article...http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Askernish-the-rebirth/1409/Default.aspx

-the restoration is inspired by the methods available to Old Tom Morris and his design principles;

-Askernish will be enjoyed by the aficionados of golf, the golfer who appreciate the original form of golf played as much along the ground as in the air, who enjoy a challenge, who accepts that golf was never meant to be fair;

-Askernish will take the golfer back in time to the world of golf, as played in the early part of the twentieth century;

-The experience of playing Askernish is the nearest thing to what our golfing forefathers experience in those early days of the game;

-“Like some of the very best experiences in life, it is only when you have moments of reflection that you really start to appreciate what a life changing experience a game at Askernish can be."

I think this kind of encapuslates how I feel about it and/or what makes me interested in playing it.

Concerning the packages and raised fees, I am 100% convinced that this would work.  It will only take the correct marketing blitz.  Look at some of the stuff that people buy in mass quantities (golf or otherwise), it doesn't have to be anything special...people just have to think it is.  And when you've got something that truly is special (like I feel Askernish is), then the marketing/selling should be easy.

[Scott Warren]

Mac,

Most of the factors you list are present in considerable supply in much more accessible corners of GB&I and while that can rarely be had for £25, it doesn't always cost upwards of £100 either (the cost difference perhaps even less when transport is priced, not to mention fitting the most into the time you have).

As for the Old Tom and Olde Worlde aspects, I fear the efforts to make the course more attractive to golfers erode that authenticity/niche, regardless of how good architecturally those changes are.

I may be wrong, but I wonder if what people are willing to pay for a true 1800s experience is viable in the second decade of the 21st Century - especially in such a remote place.

And if you change things and in doing so remove the thing that makes Askernish unique (or at least appear unique), I wonder if people will see suffificent reason to devote the time required to visit it when they can get more golf of the same character in Fife, Ayr and Sutherland for the similar money, less effort and with other after golf conveniences in greater supply.

I guess it just appears to me that Askernish faces a bit of a Catch 22 at the current time.

[Mac Plumart]

Scott...

You might be correct.  I don't doubt that.  I guess I just feel in my heart (and brain) that a solid business plan could be crafted to #1---generate a lot more interest in Askernish, #2--bring in more revenue to Askernish than is currently being generated, and #3--get a lot more revenue for other business entities in Scotland (transportation companies, other golf courses, hotels, and trip organziers).  In fact, here is the kicker...if Askernish has a business model that has it operating efficiently at 25 pounds with the limited traffic it is currently getting...imagine if prices were pushed up and/or the number of rounds per year was dramitcally boosted.  Make the deal so attractive to trip planners and the like, that they would feel extremely incented to educated their customers on how great an experience it is and also the entire Old World Tour is.

Anyway, I'll shut up now...but I see it...and I see it working.

But I get the issues they are having.  That makes sense as well.  But it Doak, Keiser, Lawrence, and Old Tom are all linked to this thing...it can work...BIG TIME!!!

For real this time, I'll shut up now.  I am off to play Dog-opoly with my kids!

[Tom_Doak]

As for the Old Tom and Olde Worlde aspects, I fear the efforts to make the course more attractive to golfers erode that authenticity/niche, regardless of how good architecturally those changes are.

I may be wrong, but I wonder if what people are willing to pay for a true 1800s experience is viable in the second decade of the 21st Century - especially in such a remote place.

And if you change things and in doing so remove the thing that makes Askernish unique (or at least appear unique), I wonder if people will see suffificent reason to devote the time required to visit it when they can get more golf of the same character in Fife, Ayr and Sutherland for the similar money, less effort and with other after golf conveniences in greater supply.

I guess it just appears to me that Askernish faces a bit of a Catch 22 at the current time.

Scott:

I think you are right about the Catch-22.  The problem with the Askernish story to date has been that by overplaying the history [they are not the only Tom Morris course in Scotland] and underpricing the green fee, they've been convincing people that it's all about history and that the conditions are not up to snuff.  That is turning people off from coming, and not attracting the people it should.

Askernish is a terrific golf course in its own right.  I was really surprised how good it was, which means that all the stories have underplayed that part. 

The changes I've suggested are small fixes to take a couple of the capricious bounces out of the course.  There are a lot of those, and unfortunately some of the toughest of them come at some of the best holes on the course.  Take the 7th, an all-world par-4 where your approach could wind up anywhere because of the uneven ground at the front of the green.  Yes, it's natural; they just mowed out that area, but a hundred years of drifted sand has blown into that spot since Old Tom saw it. 

The stuff we are proposing is not any different than what a greenkeeper might have done to improve the course over all that time.  I don't think we are altering the balance between natural and artificial.