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Ran Morrissett

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Some casual observers of the game think the Open returns to St. Andrews for historical reasons as opposed to the fact that it is far and away the best course on the Open Rota. The Old Course lives off its name and past events, they say.
 
In turn, we here boo and hiss such thoughts so here during Open week, I thought it might be fun to highlight some of the reasons that make the Old Course so good at identifying the best. And how better to do that than go and punch the biggest bully in the gut (by that I mean Pine Valley, which has the best set of holes from top to bottom in golf).

Hence, what, if any, playing strengths does the Old Course have over Pine Valley? And is it possibly more mentally draining/taxing to play than Pine Valley?

Unusual for me, I am not so much talking about the merits of each individual hole and but rather some of the unique ways that The Old Course gets into the player's head over its eighteen holes. I'll start off with a brief list of ten:

1. Both courses offer width but at several key moments (namely, on the fourteenth, sixteenth and seventeenth tee shots), The Old Course cuts off half the world from you with out of bounds now ominously tight down the right. You have become accustomed to gobs of width the entire round and now, all of a sudden, the going gets quite a bit tighter - and right toward the end of the round when the pressure is likely highest. Some architects of the Golden Age thought OB was a must for a course to be great because of how it preyed on the mind. Conversely, there is none at Pine Valley, whose fairways start and stay wide to the very end, thus allowing good players to a) establish and b) stay in a rhythm.

2. Infuriating ways to make an easy bogey and a hard par. Stick the hole behind the Short Hole bunker on the Old Course and no one can get close downwind though the hole appears simple as simple can be. Many shots at the eighth end up 50-60 feet away, setting the golfer up for a slow motion bogey. At Pine Valley, there are no gimme bogeys - everything looks tough and you know for a fact you are always within an inch of losing your dignity with one loosely played shot.

3. The area one to forty yards in front of the greens - this is a strength of The Old Course and Pine Valley's only design weakness. Apart from the 1st, 4th, 13th and 16th holes (i.e. less than 25% of the course), Pine Valley is about aerial approach shots and accepts only certain type shots into its greens. St. Andrews encourages you to invent shots and/or play shots that you normally don't attempt (and certainly never practice!) like putting onto the sixth and eighteenth green from seventy yards away.

4. Half par holes - on any given wind day, St. Andrews might offer up four to eight half par holes (3, 5, 7, 9, 10, 12, 14, & 18) to someone like John Daley or Dustin Johnson. Playing with them and waiting for six of the par four greens to clear is a nightmare (ask Ben Crenshaw re: his experience in that regard). At PV, there aren't near the same number of dilemmas and therefore, golfers aren't likely to stretch outside of their comfort zones to take a gamble. Essentially, it is easier to stick with a game plan at PV rather than attempt something stupid, which St. Andrews is great at achieving.

5. The front third of greens that slope from front to back - The Old Course has many while Pine Valley doesn't. When Tiger Woods crushed the field in the 2005 Open, remember how helpless even he looked at the forward hole locations on the fifth and sixth holes? Hitting in to a par five with a short iron and even a quest for a birdie became a struggle. At PV, the front of the green slope toward the golfer as a catcher's mitt, except for its superb fourth and eighteenth greens. This era of 'checked unchecked' technology allows players to get closer and closer to the greens off the tees at St. Andrews, only to be thwarted by the front hole locations on the front to back greens. PV doesn't have the same defense mechanism against technology as St. Andrews.

 6. Element of mystery. Drive safely left on the fourth at St. Andrews and hit your approach and ...who knows? Is it on the green? In the deep greenside bunker (and if so, how close to the steep face)? Or did the ball run through the back? Only after walking forward for a while do you suss out your ball's fate. Hence, St. Andrews keeps you off balance that extra little bit as you are never allowed to be but so comfortable. Meanwhile, the visuals at Pine Valley are more straightforward - you generally know your fate which makes it easier for good players to keep their wits about them. Plus, PV is all about golf, so you are free to focus on the task at hand. At. St. Andrews, you have the hubbub of people milling around the first tee and seventeenth green, the cars down the eighteenth fairway (don't ask), dogs barking, babies crying, etc. . With more extraneous stuff going on, it's easier for the golfer's mind to wander.

 7. More good AND bad breaks are likely to occur over your round at The Old Course than at Pine Valley. The quirky features at The Old Course see to it that that is the case. At Pine Valley, you get what you deserve by and large. Hence, you hit a poor shot and miss a wide fairway, you are more likely to accept what befalls you. At The Old Course, you rifle a shot down the middle of the twelfth fairway, it takes a hard bounce into one of five blind bunkers, and you conduct a pity party for the next several holes, moping and sobbing that no one loves you. In the process, your round unravels.

 8. Firm playing conditions coupled with the wind - St. Andrews has more of both than Pine Valley. More importantly, given those two factors, St. Andrews has much more short grass than PV and it is short grass coupled with fast and firm (and windy!) playing conditions that gives the best players in the world fits. Hard to believe but it is true: Short grass over eighteen holes can work on the elite golfer's mind more than, for instance, the jungle to the right of the fifth at PV.

 9. The natural consequence of several of the points above is that St. Andrews requires the ace golfer to control the flight of his ball more than Pine Valley. A hole like the Eden on a windy day eats up the helpless range jockey who is used to stamping out one perfect swing after another and who lacks the ability to make on the spot changes in controlling his golf ball's trajectory. Great courses need to challenge all aspects of a player's ability - and The Old Course certainly does so.

10. Finally, better than any course I know, St. Andrews has a way of engaging - and then disengaging - the golfer throughout the round. You play the world's greatest par five and then you play the unlovable Cartgate In, which somehow seems to elicit one extra stroke from you because you are girding your loins for what lies ahead. At Pine Valley, you screw on your grand chess master's face on the first tee and never dare lose concentration because, alas, you are stuck playing one relentlessly great hole after another. That's no so at St. Andrews but after you three putt the tenth green for reasons unexplained, you might not gather your composure in time to avoid making a real meal at the Eden.

There is my starting list, which dwells on the mental complexities posed by The Old Course. No wonder that the five great golf minds (B. Jones, J. Nicklaus, N. Faldo, T. Woods and R. Morrissett) have fared well there, winning both Claret Jugs and Morrissett Cups  ;D.

What points would you add? As I type this, I notice that I didn't mention how paint-worthy Pine Valley is. By that I mean, so many of its greens are handsomely framed by trees and when contrasted with the sandy soil, PV represents an artist's dream come true. The downside is that means that depth perception isn't an issue, certainly at least not relative to The Old Course where it is very hard to see and trust what your eyes are telling you.

Conversely, does anyone care to come to the aid of Pine Valley (as I recall, it has a few redeeming features as well  ;))? I say this for her: I like it more than The Old Course in large part because its hazards are rooted in nature. I DESPISE the slavish nature in which the faces on all the bunkers at St. Andrews have been revetted. On the very natural course that repeats nothing, the powers that be chose to repeat something unnatural.  :P

What say you? Is it easier for a scratch golfer to break par at St. Andrews or Pine Valley (the comparison is especially fair given that they both only have two par fives)? And is that the same answer to the question as to which plays easier for a ten handicapper?

Cheers,

Martin Toal

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2010, 06:54:49 AM »
Possibly contrast between the outward and inward 9s, as affected by wind. TOC can play like two different courses, difficult out and easy back, or the opposite, depending on conditions, but PV just looks brutal all the way all the time.

I think the scratch player who has the chance to play both courses a few times has a better shot of breaking par at TOC.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2010, 07:07:45 AM »
 8) Ran, take me out to Pine Valley and then I'll comment..

bail left, stay way from anything with a name, its pretty easy (least it was for me) one september day in 1996

Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2010, 10:03:54 AM »
In this years Links Trophy 27 players broke par for their four round totals, the winning score has ranged from +1 to -15 since its been 72 holes. Obviously one round is played over the New Course, however for the final day this year 10 of the top 11 broke par for the 36 holes over the Old and one person was even par. This is a world class field usually cutting around +2.5 to get in.

I do not think the scoring would be as low around Pine Valley off the back tees with "championship" pin positions.
Cave Nil Vino

Phil McDade

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Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2010, 10:28:25 AM »
Interesting that two replies so far have focused on the score relative to par, and not Ran's initial premise: that TOC is a more "mentally taxing" course than PV, and thus does a very good job of identifying players up to that challenge, as evidenced by its roster of champions (Jack, Tiger, Seve, Faldo...)

Mike Cirba

Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2010, 10:32:10 AM »
I thnk it's more mentally complicated, and possibly more mentally sophisticated, but I don't think it's more mentally taxing.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2010, 10:35:35 AM »
Phil/Ran being lucky to have played both I would say TOC is more mentally taxing and requires more strategic thinking to get around safely. I'm inclined to think a big score would be easier to rack up on TOC although it does have more birdie holes. Neither of the PV par 5s present a good chance of birdie. Is it a contradiction to suggest TOC is easier to score well on for the better player but also easier shoot higher scores for the 10 handicapper?
Cave Nil Vino

BCrosby

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Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2010, 11:02:38 AM »
Ran -

Good post. I largely agree.

I think the nub of the matter is that the architectural features that matter most at TOC (and on any great links course) tend to be under-defined. In most cases that is a consequence of the TOC's (and other great links courses) heavier reliance on contour, much of it quite subtle and endlessly complex. The impact of contour is almost always harder for a player to discern because it is so much harder to see and its consequences so much harder to anticipate. Even after dozens of rounds.

One of the greatest and most dramatic shots I've ever seen was Woods' knock-down approach to the 12th at TOC in 2005. All sorts of contour to deal with and he handled it masterfully. It was a great shot not so much because Woods "knew" the terrain. As those of you who have palyed the hole know, there's too much going on in front of the green to be clear about the best shot.  It was a great shot because Woods intuited so beautifully what he had to do.

There is no parallel to that shot at PV. Because there is less doubt about what the PV is asking of you. Which is not a criticism of PV. It's just that its hazards function in a different way. But that difference is why TOC is so taxing on great players.

Bob      

« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 11:05:09 AM by BCrosby »

David Stamm

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Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2010, 11:06:34 AM »
This kind of comparison depends so much on the conditions at TOC. If the course has a substantial wind, I would imagine the brain would be on constant attack throughout the round.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2010, 11:12:13 AM »
I wish I could comment on this properly but I haven't seen Pine Valley.

However, I would suggest that you are comparing the best course in the world to study strategic architecture against the xenith of penal architecture....

Seeing as I always associate strategic architecture with thinking and that strategic architecture asks you to consider the shot that you are going to play after the current one (as opposed to penal architecture which is about the current shot), then I would agree with your premise.

Tell me something - If Pine Valley is the ultimate example of penal architecture and we do (on this discussion board) like to champion the strategic and trash the penal, then why is Pine Valley one of the best courses in the world?

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2010, 11:42:14 AM »
IMO, it isn't really a fair fight if you're going to use the list of people who have won Open Championships at TOC as a reason for why it's more "mentally taxing" than Pine Valley.  Pine Valley has not hosted a bunch of championships for the best players in the world, so naturally it won't have that great list of champions to support it.  There needs to be another measure employed--one that both courses share.

I haven't played Pine Valley, but while I would describe my round at TOC with many adjectives, "mentally taxing" would not be one of them.  Frankly, I didn't find the golf course to be too difficult.  There was a steady one to two-club wind, but I found myself able to get around without too much trouble (I was able to get up and down out of the Hill bunker on the 11th, which was cool).

To me, the most potentially-maddening thing about TOC is that it can cause you to make bogies with grass, rather than water hazards or deep fescue grass or any other intrinsically penal golf course characteristics.  TOC definitely has intangibles on its side as well, such as the weather, the history, etc.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2010, 11:58:02 AM »

I haven't played Pine Valley, but while I would describe my round at TOC with many adjectives, "mentally taxing" would not be one of them.  Frankly, I didn't find the golf course to be too difficult.  There was a steady one to two-club wind, but I found myself able to get around without too much trouble (I was able to get up and down out of the Hill bunker on the 11th, which was cool).


Tim, I think it gets more mentally taxing the more you play it... Once you realise all the trouble that's out there... Ignorance is bliss I suppose....

I presume you played from 6,370 yards?....

Jason Topp

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Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2010, 12:01:26 PM »
I think whether a round at the Old Course is mentally taxing depends greatly on the weather and hole locations.  My sense is that for most tourist golf, the holes are located in areas much more easily approached than for championship play. 

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2010, 12:01:50 PM »

I haven't played Pine Valley, but while I would describe my round at TOC with many adjectives, "mentally taxing" would not be one of them.  Frankly, I didn't find the golf course to be too difficult.  There was a steady one to two-club wind, but I found myself able to get around without too much trouble (I was able to get up and down out of the Hill bunker on the 11th, which was cool).


Tim, I think it gets more mentally taxing the more you play it... Once you realise all the trouble that's out there... Ignorance is bliss I suppose....

I presume you played from 6,370 yards?....
Ally--

I could easily see that being true, about it getting more mentally taxing with repeated plays.  And yes, My father and I both played the Yellow plates which were set up around 6,300 yards.  I asked if I might be able to play the White tees, but the starter declined.  I guess I'll have to qualify for the 2015 Open to see what it's like from all the way back!  ;D
Senior Writer, GolfPass

JSlonis

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Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2010, 02:17:32 PM »
Perhaps I need to play more rounds at TOC, but in my view, Pine Valley is clearly more taxing to play.  I agree with many of Ran's points regarding TOC, but the penal nature of a miss at Pine valley is far greater than at TOC.

I thought the playing corridors at TOC were very wide.  There is a lot more room for a miss to be okay and recoverable.  While quite a few of PV's fairways are generous in width, they aren't nearly as big as TOC and the room for error if you do miss is less and more severe.  While the bunkers at TOC are tough and numerous, outside of a few of the most severe bunkers at TOC, it is usually do-able to wedge the ball out back into play. That is not always the case at PV.  

It's hard to make generalizations when discussing and comparing courses and my opinions are based somewhat on how I'm able to play both courses and what I've shot.  Possibly one of the best rounds I've played was at TOC in 30+ mph winds,  granted I didn't play the tips, I shot even par with a birdie on #18.  The 18th hole was dead down wind and the green was easily reachable from the tee.  It was also one of the most fun rounds I've ever played.  What was amazing to me was just how playable the course was in those conditions.  I can't imagine being able to shoot nearly the same score at PV with similar winds.  

Just the tee shots alone make PV more mentally taxing for me.  The severity of a greenside miss at PV is much tougher IMO as well.  I think the potential for a big score on any hole at PV is always there and I wouldn't say the same for TOC.  While they are two of my favorite courses I've ever played, they are just so different, it's tough to compare.  For me, day in and day out, I'd find PV to be mentally more draining by a fair margin.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 02:26:21 PM by JSlonis »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2010, 03:58:53 PM »
Ran,

I'd agree with your points.

I would also add that the elements, combined with a distinquishing lack of definition, make play at TOC more taxing.

That element so critical to great golf, the WIND, isn't nearly as much of a deciding factor at PV.
PV with wind would become exponentially more taxing, but, it is what it is.

Sean Leary

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Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2010, 04:15:07 PM »
Having played TOC only once, I didn't find it taxing at all because the whole course is blind and I couldn't see anything anyway... ;)

In all seriousness, I think you would have to play TOC numerous times from full length to determine this.

Scott Warren

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Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2010, 04:25:06 PM »
I think you're right Sean.

I didn't find TOC that mentally taxing on my only play to date, but I would imagine a lot of that is down to not knowing the alternatives, options and threats that were facing me. As that knowledge grows, I imagine the mental tax grows.

Andrew Mitchell and I have discussed a few times the ease you can have on a new course, shooting a low score because you don't know to be intimidated by hazards or tight areas you aren't aware of. I think TOC might be the Mac Daddy of that phenomenon.

I haven't played Pine Valley yet, so I can't say whether it is more or less taxing than TOC, but for the new player or he who has only one or two rounds on the course - and for most of us that will be the extent of our play at Pine Valley and TOC - perhaps the obvious trouble at PV (that's how I perceive it and how others have described it to me) makes for a more mentally taxing round than TOC.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2010, 04:33:32 PM »
I find courses with lots of OB or lost ball opportunities to be the most taxing. You don't lose many at either (especially at PV where the caddies forecaddy and find your ball and move it to playable locations. ) ;)

Fred Yanni

Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2010, 04:55:14 PM »
Ran -

Interesting points.  However I would argue that you understate the number of holes where the only attack is aerial into the greens at PV from the 1 to 40 yard mark and that the course only accepts certain types of shots.

I would point out that 5, 6, 12 & 15 all offer the player the option to play shots that run up on those holes.  Often keeping the ball on the ground on those holes is the preferred shot from that distance especially when the conditons are firm.  For example, most who dare pull a wedge out from in front of the 5th green often find the ball back at their feet, or behind them.   

I will answer the question asked at the end of your post about the liklihood of going low at TOC vs. PV.  Noting I do not have nealry the experience at TOC as I do at PV, but if memeory serves the likelihood of me going very low at TOC far exceeds the likellihood at PV.  Depending on conditons, I believe the low hadicapper will have a better opportunity to rack up birdies at TOC over PV.  At PV a minor mistep can result in a double or worse, at TOC it seemed you could almost always find a way to make a bogey. 

For the 10 handicapper, IMO would do much better at TOC, hands down in all conditions.  Lots more room for mishits and always a way to save a bogey.     

 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2010, 08:42:40 PM »
I am with several others who equate "mentally taxing" with U.S. Open type difficulty, and The Old Course is not like that.

What it is, is the most COMPLICATED golf course in the world.  You try to plan your way from tee to green by thinking your way backwards, but if you don't put your drive within 5-10 yards of where you wanted to, you have to start all over again from there.  How close do I dare play to the bunker in front?  If I play wide, should I also lay up a bit short, or what is going to happen to the ball going off the back right of the green.  If I wind up in the bunker, where do I go from there? -- it's hardly ever toward the flag.  There are more bunkers and contours and slopes to know than on any course in the world, by far.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2010, 09:22:43 PM »
Good thread and posts, thanks gents.

Made me think we might want to invent a new scale: The "Mid Handicapper with a Hangover" Scale; as in, on a scale of 1-10, how much fun would a mid-handicapper have who'd spent the previous night getting drunk to ease the anxiety of playing a world-class golf course. Points would be subtracted from the fun-ranking based on the number of strokes above his handicap a hung-over golfer needed to get around, on a one-for-five basis or so.  This would help offset the masochists who'd have fun playing Pine Valley with a hangover while shooting 112.  I think it's time we took some of the pressure off the Doak Scale. Interestingly, I think we'd find the MHWAH scale would produce rankings in direct inverse proportion to Joshua Crane's famous course rankings/system. A drunk, in Crane's way of thinking, shouldn't enjoy a round of golf as much as a sober man.  But of course, if Crane's way of thinking had won out 100 years ago, we wouldn't be talking about most of Dr. MacKenzie's courses today. The trouble is, the MHWAH requires that only mid-handicappers play the top 100 courses; if JES liked Pine Valley with a hangover, for example, that wouldn't count. (He can go invent his own scale if he wants.)  I think TOC would rank high; Garden City too.     

Peter      
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 09:50:30 PM by PPallotta »

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2010, 09:33:18 PM »
I agree with Tom that TOC is more mentally "complicated."  On the other hand one stray shot at PV costs you more.  A double or triple is only one shot away.  As the round gets to 13 and ou have a decent score, it gets in your (my) head that PV giveth and PV taketh away.  
You don't have to plot your way around PV as much as you do at TOC.
The first time I played TOC our caddies gave my wife, my buddy, and I different lines off the tee because of the distance differences of our tee balls.  You need to pick the right line.   
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 09:35:55 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2010, 10:22:58 PM »
When one considers that Tiger Woods NEVER hit his ball in one bunker off the tee, and I believe, not in any bunker for the entire four rounds when he won, you have to ask, was it the greatest ball striking exhibit ever, luck, or .... have the strategic nature of the bunker positions become diminished with the "long" ball ?

Sean, I alluded to the blind nature of the course when I indicated that it lacked the typicall definition found at most courses.
While the Pros tend to "dial it in" after practice and play, it's still disconcerting, and, when combined with the wind, befudling.

PV has tremendous definition and not much wind, in part, due to rampant tree growth which shields, buffers or diminishes the effect of the wind.

And, other than the DA, most bunkers at PV are easily recovered from compared to the steep sod faced bunkers at TOC.

Jud_T

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Re: Is The Old Course more mentally taxing to play than Pine Valley?
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2010, 10:33:54 PM »
PP-Classic!
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

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