[Ronald Montesano]

Adam, on what do you base your "that's just not true"?  After all, Carl was just there.

[Phil McDade]

I agree with Adam C on the Straits and with Terry L on Blackwolf Run.

How far away is Lawsonia? 

Tim:

It's mostly two-lane state highway, but you can do it in an hour (provided it's not on the Sunday morning of a Packers game. ) Just take Highway 23 west to Fond du Lac, and then on to Ripon and Green Lake. (Eric Terhorst proviso: Do not go 1 MPH over the speed limit within the city limits of Rosendale, a one-light town on the way that generates nearly all municipal revenue via speeding tickets. When I say 1 MPH, I really do mean it. )

[Adam Clayman]

RM< If they are marketing the original routing of the course, there's no way I could see how they could call the 10th the first hole. I did not mean to say Carl was lying. Just that the uphill hole, to the first green of the Meadow nine, was the original 10th green site. Only it was 34' higher and flat as a pancake, in it's original iteration.

[Carl Nichols]

All I know is that the first hole of the routing that we played on June 25 is the uphill par 4. The 10th hole is a par 5 that plays along the river in the other direction.

[Phil McDade]

Adam's correct -- that's the original 10th hole. I remember my unbridled joy at clearing that shot the first time I played it.

[Andy Troeger]

Given that Whistling Straits and Blackwolf Run are both Pete Dye creations I wonder if personal preference between the two comes down to little more than whether one would rather spend 4-5 hours at the lake or in the forest/river/meadow. I really love the river holes at Blackwolf Run so that would be my favorite stretch of the property, but also think that the original 18 configuration is not to be missed if you have the chance.

[Ronald Montesano]

Well then, I apologize...Here's what they have on site...http://www.destinationkohler.com/golf/bwr/original_championship_course_detail.html

[Phil McDade]

Well then, I apologize...Here's what they have on site...http://www.destinationkohler.com/golf/bwr/original_championship_course_detail.html

Ronald -- I don't know that an apology is in order -- they've just switched the nines. At least, when I played the course the very first year it opened, #10 was the opening hole and #1 was #10.

[Carl Nichols]

So does anyone know how the current routing uses holes from the 36 total holes?  Also, are these viewed as the best 18 holes on the property that can be routed together, or are there another 18 that are supposed to be better (and can be routed together, of course)?

[PCCraig]

So does anyone know how the current routing uses holes from the 36 total holes?  Also, are these viewed as the best 18 holes on the property that can be routed together, or are there another 18 that are supposed to be better (and can be routed together, of course)?

From what I remember and from what others have told me they are the holes that allow for the best spectator movement and allows the hospitality to be on the outside of the holes being played?

I've been called an idiot on here before for saying so but the middle holes of the River Course (5-13 I think) are IMO really good, and if you could ever combine those holes with the back nine of the Meadows (the back nine of the Champ course) then you would have the best 18 hole course on the BWR property. The River Course holes right in front of the clubhouse are terrible.

[Jeff Goldman]

Adam,

I do know that, but I also believe that Pete put a lot more mounds around (are those around the first green also burial mounds).  I know you have a spiritual connection with the original 18, but I think if you saw those holes elsewhere you might be quite critical.  Haven't otherwise really seen you or anyone else applaud manufactured decent or worse holes on a golf course on the ground that they make the great holes stand out more. 

Jeff

[Adam Clayman]

Jeff, A courses flow has to start with a modicum of mundane to allow the holes of note to stand out. Like The Faz told Steve Wynn, if he designed SHadow Creek they way Mr. Wynn wanted it, he and the golfer would be burnt out by the 4th hole.

Don't we have to put into context the time of their creation. The late 80's was prime time for that contained look. Plus, Pete always seem to get a pass on his manufactured look. Why that is? I have no idea. Other than maybe it's part of his humor, or, the golf is so compelling (challenging) maybe their eye jarring effect puts the golfer ill at ease. Like the hummocks (moguls) in front of the Ladies green on the last hole of the Valley nine. He did the same on the 16th at Firethorn.

I'm not limited in my appreciation of golf courses looks. Matt Ward is always trying to pigeon hole me and he is way off base. I am open to justifications whether their my preference or not.
 

[Mike Cirba]

I greatly preferred Blackwolf Run River to Whistling Straits.

I think that natural beauty of the land on the fomer, and how it's cleverly used, is just so much more satisfying than the contrived volcano hillsides of WS.   

Adam Clayman and I had this discussion a while back, and I think it's something that most who've played the courses more than once or twice would agree with.

[Reef Wilson]

Thanks all for the thoughts and opinions. I've decided to go ahead with BWR. I'm intrigued enough by the debate and the course is such an unknown for me that I can't pass it up. Straits is already familiar to me and I will see more of it and eventually play it, preferably at shoulder season or as a replay. I will probably hit up Lawsonia first though
Cheers,
Reef

[Mike Cirba]

Reef,

We'll be expecting a full report. 

Seriously, I'm very interested to hear your impressions of Blackwolf Run as I think it is some of the best and most creative Pete Dye work I've seen.

[Ronald Montesano]

Smart move, Reef.  Is that a saint's name, bye the bye?  Saint Reef of the crashing waves?

[Mike Cirba]

Actually, I've never played the Meadows Valley course, and am unsure how much better the original course was because they were already split by the time I visited.   

I'd like to get back there someday, if for no other reason than to play Lawsonia.

[Ronald Montesano]

Mike,
MV starts so slowly that you wonder if it was Pete Dye or Ronald Ross that designed the course.  It picks up steam gently, then gets going around hole #10...the entire back nine is off-the-charts amazing, with holes 12-15 some of the most memorable you'll play.  16 is lengthy, 17 is a let-down, then 18 finishes fairly strong.

[Phil McDade]

Ronald:

I think 15 at MV is the best hole of the entire complex. A great hole.

[Carl Nichols]

Which hole is 15 MV? Is it part of the OCC?

[Phil McDade]

Which hole is 15 MV? Is it part of the OCC?

Click on this link and #15:

http://www.akohlerexperience.com/golf/bwr/valleys_detail.html

It's part of the original 18. (Addendum -- it plays as #6 on the current original 18 routing.)

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Given that Whistling Straits and Blackwolf Run are both Pete Dye creations I wonder if personal preference between the two comes down to little more than whether one would rather spend 4-5 hours at the lake or in the forest/river/meadow. I really love the river holes at Blackwolf Run so that would be my favorite stretch of the property, but also think that the original 18 configuration is not to be missed if you have the chance.

Having just played there this past Tue/Wed. I thought I'd jump in on this thread.

I think Andy hits the nail on the head here by saying it really is just your preference to where you would rather spend your 5 hours, with amazing views of Lake Michigan or through a very beautiful river valley.

The arguments for playing either one NOW are also pretty split to me. On the one side playing the Straits course a few weeks before the pros play it could make it more fun to watch. On the other hand Black Wolf has the Original Championship Course that won't be open much longer.

You really can't go wrong with either imo.

One thing to consider is that BWR doesn't allow you to hit driver as much. I had to hit 4-wood or hybrid on about 7-8 holes there where as only on 2-3 at WS. That being said I was one tee-box up where I should be but I don't think it would have changed it much. Something to consider anyway.

Two good courses that wouldn't get nearly as much pub or good ratings imo if placed a less spectacular setting. Enjoy the views and surrounds!

[Adam Clayman]

Are they really passing off the OCC as starting on the Valley nine?  Someone should call them out on their BS. The original course there was called the River-Valley. The Valley nine truely a special one. Granted it was way more special before the teeing ghround was on the current first was cut out of the forest. Whoever opined above about its qualities obviously felt it. Good on ya.
The sequence of 12-16 is the bomb. The final approach over the river to the double green was also a very cool, albeit difficult shot. One that made you want to have another go at it. 

[Andy Shulman]

Don't know whether it's possible to revive this month-old thread, but if it is, which course did you try, Reef, and what did you think?  I'm facing a similar dilemma - time for just one round at either Blackwolf Run (Original), Whistling Straits or Erin Hills - on a trip to WI next month.

And, yes, I'm also planning to play the Links course at Lawsonia, a track I'd probably have never heard of were it not for GCA.

[Jud_T]

A tough call Andy.  If it were me I'd play 54 holes at Lawsonia (Links) and buy myself a few beers with the cash left over.  Push come to shove, I'd probably go BWR first then it's a tossup between the other 2 IMHO.....

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