KENT KALEIDOSCOPE: Deal (plus changes), Princes (2017-18 Winter Tour) & Sandwich

« **Reply #225 on:** February 22, 2017, 05:56:07 PM »

« **Reply #226 on:** February 23, 2017, 09:36:59 AM »

Have Princes started going with the frilly bunkers fad?

« **Reply #227 on:** February 23, 2017, 10:25:49 AM »

Chappers

I wouldn't say the bunkers are frilly, just a bit more shaped than merely pots...and bigger. It seems to me that this is the style being used when bunkers back into dunes or rough and pots are more for short grass areas...though there are some exceptions. I don't know the long term plan.

Ciao

« **Reply #228 on:** February 23, 2017, 11:41:22 AM »

Nice update.

Despite the sand they had just spread, I thought it was in the best nick I've seen it going back at least a dozen years. Hope they keep it up.

I do think rough/cross wind combinaiton is the most brutal of the three there. But it remains a popluar destination for London golfers throughout the winter, which is probaly the best time to see it.

« **Reply #229 on:** February 23, 2017, 12:43:17 PM »

Mark -

What is the date of the plan of the golf course? I can't make it out.

Bob

« **Reply #230 on:** February 23, 2017, 11:28:20 PM »

Bob neither can I, the earliest date is 1907 but that assumes the players weren't writing their thoughts from an earlier year. I'll have a look at the original next time I'm at the club.

« **Reply #231 on:** February 28, 2017, 04:53:25 AM »

Spangles

I think Princes is having a think about a partial restoration. I have no idea what this might entail, but some news is meant to come out soon....maybe Adam will reveal all.

Ciao

« **Reply #232 on:** April 03, 2018, 04:40:52 AM »

The 2017-18 Winter Tour (and I mean its still winter

« **Reply #233 on:** April 03, 2018, 05:14:13 AM »

Quote from: Sean_A on February 28, 2017, 04:53:25 AM

Spangles

I think Princes is having a think about a partial restoration. I have no idea what this might entail, but some news is meant to come out soon....maybe Adam will reveal all.

Ciao

Sorry, I missed this. I'm going to a media event at Prince's in a few weeks, but that is for the unveiling of the rebuilt Himalayas. I haven't heard anything about restoration. A few years ago there was a little bit of chatter about a remote possibility of them trying to put back the pre-war 18, but that has long been forgotten about I think -- they wouldn't have spent the money on the Himalayas if they were even considering it.

« **Reply #234 on:** April 03, 2018, 08:39:09 AM »

Adam

I played Princes last week with my local golf society for 2 rounds

First round was on Shore and Dunes
Second round was on Dunes and Himalayas

The general consensus by the players of my local society was that the Himalayas should have been shut as it was like a construction site with lots of GUR. For me it was an insight of what works have been carried out

Having played Princes a number of times in the past - they have started to convert a number of reverted bunkers of which was done by EGD a few years ago and converting them into a shaggy unkempt version which was proposed by Mackenzie and Ebert

However on the Himalayas there are major changes to the layout and a number of holes

Hole 1 - the fairway has been widened to the left and it has the most stupid small central bunker which is not visible from the tee which detracts what I think is a challenging opener

Hole 2 - existing holes 2 and 3 are being merged together into a monster par five - shame they are getting rid of the existing second green which is a nicely shaped green

Hole 3 - existing hole 4 the bunkers have been redone the tees have been extended further back the ditch on the right has been opened up a bit into what is intended to be a marshy water hazard

Hole 4 - existing hole 5 fairway bunkers have been given the shaggy look otherwise unchanged

Hole 5 - new par three which goes 90 degs away from the direction of the other holes looks a challenging short par 3 with a raised green which was difficult to see the shapes due to the amount of top dressing on it

Hole 6 - tees have been moved further left on top of Dunes ridge and the hole is straightened - with the marshy hazard which was put in a few years ago cleared

Hole 7 - apparently the long Himalayas bunker has been restored correct me if I’m wrong but it’s miles out of play to a super unbunkered par 3

Hole 8 - biggest change of the existing holes the tees have been moved forward on top of a dune near hole 7 green and shortened into a short par 4 with new marshy areas either side of the fairway replacing the trough like ditches

Hole 9 - new tees pushed further back

A lot of vegetation has been removed and the course is now more open with large sandy wastes and the length has been increased by 300 or so yards making it a tough nine to play

Personally I am not sure of these changes whether they were necessary on the other side it has probably made the Himalayas nine from the easiest to the hardest of the three different nines and it would be interesting to see how it evolves over the next few years

Cheers
Ben

Quote from: Adam Lawrence on April 03, 2018, 05:14:13 AM

Quote from: Sean_A on February 28, 2017, 04:53:25 AM
Spangles

I think Princes is having a think about a partial restoration. I have no idea what this might entail, but some news is meant to come out soon....maybe Adam will reveal all.

Ciao

Sorry, I missed this. I'm going to a media event at Prince's in a few weeks, but that is for the unveiling of the rebuilt Himalayas. I haven't heard anything about restoration. A few years ago there was a little bit of chatter about a remote possibility of them trying to put back the pre-war 18, but that has long been forgotten about I think -- they wouldn't have spent the money on the Himalayas if they were even considering it.

« **Reply #235 on:** April 04, 2018, 04:10:10 AM »

Thanks Ben. You are right, the Himalayas should have been closed as it was a mess. I fear this will leave a bad impression for many who will think twice about playing it in the future.

I don't know how many of these ponds/marshes will remain in play (I assume some will be drained), but I have never seen so many bodies of water on a links. I can only assume sand was taken from these areas to create dunes etc. My impression of the design isn't positive except for the outstanding 7th hole...a superb short hole played to a green on a ridge with fallaways front and back. Losing the 3rd is a bit of a shame. Playing over wasteland and a bunker works well for that par 3. I like the double green 4/8, but the holes are nothing special...in truth I don't like the 8th at all. All in all, for me the Hims still falls short of Shore and way behind the excellent Dunes. The good news is the club allows 9 hole play (half price of full fee) so that can't be bad. The bottom line is I don't think the Hims is a replacement 9 for Shore. If you are rolling through for a game, the Shore/Dunes combo is still tops. Even for a 27 hole day I would rather play Dunes twice than add Hims.

In general, the entire property and house needs a bit of tidy up. The club is not presenting itself on the front foot right now and that should be addressed pronto.

I only took one photo because the place is a mess. Below is Sarazen's Bunker on the 9th, built on the spot of a bunker Sarazen played from with his famous sand wedge on the way to winning the 1932 Open. That club led to a 75 year endorsement deal with Wilson!

God willing, that concludes the Winter Tour.

Ciao

« **Reply #236 on:** April 04, 2018, 01:05:11 PM »

I’m pleased to say the 16th at Deal is returning to being a very good par 5 later this year, thank goodness.

The 2nd has a new left side fairway trap at the end of the flat area. The existing left fairway bunker has been widened and moved closer to the fairway.

The 3rd is having the tees moved back and left of the 2nd green in the 2018 winter programme.

The old bunkers on the 5th have been scraped out and are non-bunker waste areas.

The 11th has a new fairway trap in the right rough around 50 yards past the big left trap.

On 17 there is now a large waste area left of the fairway. Replacing a scrubby bank full of whins and rabbit burrows.

Exciting times at Deal. Although obviously things will go downhill when the (very) part time volunteer greenkeeper moves to the St Andrews Links Trust for the summer!!

« **Reply #237 on:** April 05, 2018, 05:59:52 AM »

Sean,

I agree with you regarding the entire property and especially the clubhouse needs an facelift/upgrade to come up to a similar level to the Lodge which is a very good large dormy house with bar, small restaurant and snooker room perfect for a golf trip.

As for the Himalayas I would prefer it to be a standalone 9 or have nine additional holes assuming that the owner has more land at his disposal with the Shore and Dunes being a permanent 18 hole course.

Shortening the 8th hole and making it look very Florida is mind boggling for somewhere like Princes.

Cheers
Ben

Quote from: Sean_A on April 04, 2018, 04:10:10 AM

Thanks Ben. You are right, the Himalayas should have been closed as it was a mess. I fear this will leave a bad impression for many who will think twice about playing it in the future.

The turf is generally heavier on the Hims 9 and that likely explains the water everywhere. I don't know how many of these ponds/marshes will remain in play (I assume some will be drained), but I have never seen so many bodies of water on a links. My impression of the design isn't positive except for the outstanding 7th hole...a superb short hole played to a green on a ridge with fallaways front and back. Losing the 3rd is a bit of a shame. Playing over wasteland and a bunker works well for that par 3. I like the double green 4/8, but the holes are nothing special...in truth I don't like the 8th at all. All in all, for me the Hims still falls short of Shore and way behind the excellent Dunes. The good news is the club allows 9 hole play (half price of full fee) so that can't be bad. The bottom line is I don't think the Hims is a replacement 9 for Shore. If you are rolling through for a game, the Shore/Dunes combo is still tops. Even for a 27 hole day I would rather play Dunes twice than add Hims.

In general, the entire property and house needs a bit of tidy up. The club is not presenting itself on the front foot right now and that should be addressed pronto.

I only took one photo because the place is a mess. Below is Sarazen's Bunker on the 9th, built on the spot of a bunker Sarazen played from with his famous sand wedge on the way to winning the 1932 Open. That club led to a 75 year endorsement deal with Wilson!

God willing, that concludes the Winter Tour.

Ciao

« **Reply #238 on:** April 09, 2018, 03:32:48 AM »

Quote from: Mark Chaplin on April 04, 2018, 01:05:11 PM

I’m pleased to say the 16th at Deal is returning to being a very good par 5 later this year, thank goodness.

The 2nd has a new left side fairway trap at the end of the flat area. The existing left fairway bunker has been widened and moved closer to the fairway.

The 3rd is having the tees moved back and left of the 2nd green in the 2018 winter programme.

The old bunkers on the 5th have been scraped out and are non-bunker waste areas.

The 11th has a new fairway trap in the right rough around 50 yards past the big left trap.

On 17 there is now a large waste area left of the fairway. Replacing a scrubby bank full of whins and rabbit burrows.

Exciting times at Deal. Although obviously things will go downhill when the (very) part time volunteer greenkeeper moves to the St Andrews Links Trust for the summer!!

Chappers

What was the impetus for all this work?

Ciao

« **Reply #239 on:** April 09, 2018, 07:06:30 AM »

Sean the club’s desire for continued improvement, safety and speed of play for the 3rd and design input from Martin Ebert.

« **Reply #240 on:** April 09, 2018, 09:28:11 AM »

Much of this existed in a Mackenzie & Ebert RCP club master plan dating to before I joined the club in 2009, so it’s not an “on a whim” situation.

Admittedly I am judging by pictures from afar, but James Bledge seems like he is making the place absolutely sing.

There’s a decent chance I might get back in 2019 or 2020 and it seems there will be a fair bit of new stuff to acquaint myself with if I do!

« **Reply #241 on:** April 09, 2018, 03:47:19 PM »

Scott you are quite right the ideas have been around for years. We’ve had a big focus on getting the right team and the basics on a different level before moving on to other issues.

Nicky and I cut the turf nursery today, three different areas with different grasses. Now it has pop up watering it’s doing really well and supplying quality turf grown on site rather than imported at a cost.

« **Reply #242 on:** April 11, 2018, 09:03:24 PM »

Quote from: Mark Chaplin on April 09, 2018, 07:06:30 AM

Sean the club’s desire for continued improvement, safety and speed of play for the 3rd and design input from Martin Ebert.

Chappers

So the 3rd will be a bit of a dogleg left to the same fairway? Were people bombing walkers out right?

So the new bunker on 11 is for the big boys?

When you say waste area, what exactly does that mean?

Ciao

« **Reply #243 on:** May 23, 2019, 05:39:28 PM »

Sean - yes the dog walkers were in danger, not only are there new tees but a new dune down the right to screen the footpath. The new bunker down the right of 11 was in range for average players last weekend. “Waste area” scraped out bare sand, not groomed, not a bunker.

I’ve spent some time at Princes over the last couple of weeks. Huge changes there in the last 18 months, the Himalayas changes are well reported here, the turf on the new holes needs time but the 9 is popular with members and visitors alike.

Many improvements on the Dunes and Shore, the common comment on Princes was many good holes but the visuals made them blend into each other and difficult to recall. The work has changed many bunkers and there are numerous waste areas, the aspects are much improved and I’m sure the Shore/Dunes will climb the rankings. The fairway turf is tight and in excellent condition despite the drought of 2018 and this year’s very dry spring.

With huge improvements at RCP and Princes plus the 2020 Open at Royal St Georges these are exciting times in East Kent.

« **Reply #244 on:** May 25, 2019, 11:11:18 AM »

Quote from: Mark Chaplin on April 09, 2018, 03:47:19 PM

Scott you are quite right the ideas have been around for years. We’ve had a big focus on getting the right team and the basics on a different level before moving on to other issues.

Nicky and I cut the turf nursery today, three different areas with different grasses. Now it has pop up watering it’s doing really well and supplying quality turf grown on site rather than imported at a cost.

Chappers- Are there any pix of the changes?

I've seen a few on Bledge's blog but nothing of late and I understand yesterday was the ceremonial opening of the new 3rd tee etc.

Do you think the waste areas and the lacy jagged new bunkering looks in place with the existing pot bunkers? I wish they could restore the sandy parlour type waste area on 4 especially if you play the winter tees it would look awesome but that is pure aesthetic..

« **Reply #245 on:** May 25, 2019, 11:52:25 AM »

Noel played this morning the 3rd looks like it’s been there for 25 years already, the wind switched so 3 and 16 both played into the wind.

I’ve never been a big fan of shaggy bunkers, they clearly save lots of money over the years. I’d like to see some of them have a shallow revetted wall so they are more in keeping with the existing pot bunkers.

Unfortunately I don’t know how to post pictures, as you say there’s some on the blog and a few on twitter. You due over this summer?

« **Reply #246 on:** June 03, 2019, 03:43:44 AM »

Chappers

Thanks for the update. I shall be there in a few weeks. Is there waste area behind the 8th?

Ciao

« **Reply #247 on:** June 03, 2019, 05:56:45 AM »

Quote from: Sean_A on June 03, 2019, 03:43:44 AM

Chappers

Thanks for the update. I shall be there in a few weeks. Is there waste area behind the 8th?

Ciao

Sean No.

So I've walked and played the revised 16th 3x. I normally introduce this hole to visitors as my favourite hole... anywhere.

I'm going through a moment where I struggle to accept the possibility that it's been improved! More plays needed.

« **Reply #248 on:** June 03, 2019, 06:34:57 PM »

Quote from: Tony_Muldoon on June 03, 2019, 05:56:45 AM

Quote from: Sean_A on June 03, 2019, 03:43:44 AM
Chappers

Thanks for the update. I shall be there in a few weeks. Is there waste area behind the 8th?

Ciao

Sean No.

So I've walked and played the revised 16th 3x. I normally introduce this hole to visitors as my favourite hole... anywhere.

I'm going through a moment where I struggle to accept the possibility that it's been improved! More plays needed.

Tony- Lest us not forget that Sir Peter Allen called #16 the greatest hole in Links golf!

Chappers, sadly this may be the first time in 20 years I may not make it to Deal in a year. We'll see, still hopeful.

Any pictures of the renovations would be appreciated, I saw the alternate fairway on 16 being put in late last summer but not some of the lacy bunkers etc which I'm worried about in concert with the pot bunkers. I don't want sandy wastes as was the course in the old pictures in Horace Hutchinson's book etc but like the revetted bunkers in keeping with current character.

Again, someone please post pix, I can't wait to see it. Bledge has been great for this course.

« **Reply #249 on:** June 03, 2019, 08:54:01 PM »

Jon Cavalier and I just spent a very busy week in London and then down on the Coast.

Walton Heath Old
Woking
St George's Hill
Swinley Forest
Sunningdale Old and New (photographing not playing)
Rye
Littlestone
Deal
Princes
Royal St George's

Jon photographed all of the courses and droned several of them including Deal. He'll post the Deal 16th shots shortly.

My impressions:

Woking has really done some marvelous work. The area behind 2tee/5 green/6tee is now a wonderful view. Jon had the same question that I'm sure several have asked before -has Woking ever thought of starting 1-4 on current 15-18 so the 14th could finish next too the clubhouse?

The 17th at Swinley wasn't enough of a change that it would effect the overall experience. First off in a 2 ball on a quiet weekday was pretty magical.

Nothing that I saw at St George's Hill has changed my opinion that it's the best golf course in the world. That was not a mistype.

Several curious newly restored bunkers on Sunningdale Old. We were told by the head pro the greenside bunker on 7 and a left fairway bunker on 18 would both be redone again in house after a not so successful attempt this past winter.

I loved the sliding presentation boards in the Rye clubhouse which made it easy to compare various evolutions of the course.

Princes new Himalaya 9 is in really really good shape. Best of any holes we played on the journey. The first and 7th were favorites.

Deal isn't kidding around - this is a major test of golf in every respect. I was shocked at just how back some of the back tees now are. I thought 3 and 16 were both good changes - but full disclosure it had been 10+ years since I last visited.

I didn't love all of the changes at R St George - they seem to be caught in the middle of changing over the bunkers. There were riveted round circles, blow out bunkers, and waste areas -sometimes all on the same hole. Some of the greens were a long way from being ready for an Open in 13 months as well. Lots to do at RSG. That front nine does have a special feel though.

Thanks to Mark Chaplin and several others for your help in trip planning. 11 rounds in 6 days was a fun, if tiring, romp through London and the South. Particularly when you are taking 1,000 pictures a day as Jon does. But I'm please to report that all 2 balls came in at under 3:00 when adjusted for traffic ahead.

And one final piece of news -after 30 plus visits to the UK - I'm proud to say I am now semi competent driving on the left.

Michael

News:

Sean_A

Mark Chaplin

Sean_A

Tony_Muldoon

BCrosby

Mark Chaplin

Sean_A

Sean_A

Adam Lawrence

Ben Stephens

Sean_A

Mark Chaplin

Ben Stephens

Sean_A

Mark Chaplin

Scott Warren

Mark Chaplin

Sean_A

Mark Chaplin

Noel Freeman

Mark Chaplin

Sean_A

Tony_Muldoon

Noel Freeman

Michael Wolf