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Tony_Muldoon

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Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #175 on: May 26, 2011, 05:38:05 PM »
Really enjoying the discussion guys.

Can I turn it to 16th approach?

What are your approaches to getting on in two or three?  Do you always go for it in two if your drive is good enough?


Can also do the same for 3 while we're about it?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Sean_A

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Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #176 on: May 26, 2011, 05:45:54 PM »
Really enjoying the discussion guys.

Can I turn it to 16th approach?

What are your approaches to getting on in two or three?  Do you always go for it in two if your drive is good enough?


Can also do the same for 3 while we're about it?

Spangles

What do you do on these two holes?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #177 on: May 26, 2011, 06:02:08 PM »
Sean

The honest answer is my excitement at the possibilities on each hole means I try too hard to hit good drives and thus rarely give myself a crack at them in two.

ON 3, you do get a great view of approach shots from the 4th tee.   I do think the aerial approach is worth a go here. When downwind trying to run one in usually results in me having a blind chip from the deep valley just before the green.  Also I know you should try and feed it from the left but they move the pin around quite a bit and you don’t want to be too far left or your ball goes straight on and being caught in the rough at the bottom of the bank is not clever.


On 16 I’m all at sea.  One of my few ambitions in golf is to hold that green in two (oh and sink the put).  I imagine you have to bounce the ball off the dune to the left or the knob on the right of the entrance-I’ve seen the former.  Can’t see a ball running up from the valley?   Being 230 yards out is not really in my range and so the best play would be two wedges, but it’s very hard to be that disciplined.  A glorious set of decisions here.



Interesting how 17 divided opinion and I must take another look at 15, where I always tried to come in from the left.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Scott Warren

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Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #178 on: May 26, 2011, 06:15:49 PM »
Tony,

I agree that going for the green at 16 is just too tempting, despite the fact it's quite a low percentage play.

To me, the pin position dictates where I want to approach from.

If the pin is at the front, I want to be 80 yards or so back, because it's just too tricky a shot from in that valley at the front if the green to a front pin and you run a strong risk of knocking it 70ft past and having a really tough two putt.

But if the pin is at the back, especially the back right, I'm happy having a crack with my second because if the ball doesn't make it up the dune and rolls back, it's a pretty easy chip/pitch to a somewhat gathering pin.

I reckon if you know you will be tempted to go for it despite it being a risky play, just hit an iron off the tee, then bunt another to 100 yards and you're all set. I often resolved to do just that, but when I got too the tee I just couldn't resist taking driver!

I'm inslined to think the shot suits a lefty hitting a draw, who can run the ball up the slpe towards the dune on the right. As it is for me hitting a draw there the natural shape combined with the effect of the dune tends to shove it wide or wash too much speed off, so it nearly crests the dune, but then runs back into the valley.

A pic of the approach from Ran's review:
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 07:31:39 PM by Scott Warren »

JNC Lyon

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Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #179 on: May 26, 2011, 06:52:01 PM »
I missed some of the discussion on the 8th, but I think it is generally a very solid short par three.  On a course with lots of room around most of the greens, the 8th is one hole where the golfer needs to step up and hit a shot.  Here is the issue with the statements about 8 being a weak hole: missing the green does not result in the death penalty.  A ball finding the right spot (i.e. not right up against the lip) in one of those bunkers leaves a straightforward up and down for a good bunker player.  There is a way to avoid the bunkers: miss the green long-left.  There is plenty of short grass back there, and it leaves a straightforward up and down.  As I recall, Dan Moore and I got it up and down from back there in a foursomes match.

8 is not the best hole on the course.  However, it is a solid par three that plays a variety of ways depending on the wind and tee position.  Is it too exacting?  Hardly.  It's the easiest of the three par threes, and a number higher than 3 there should come as a disappointment.

16:  I don't care what club you have in there.  If you leave it in the "Valley of Inglorious Security" on the second shot, you will have the best opportunity for a birdie.  Why?  A miss on a second shot takes away almost all chance of birdie, and it makes you grind it out for a five.  Scott, a recovery from just short of the green to a back pin is extremely difficult.  What club do you hit?  Wedge? No, turf is too tight.  Putter?  Sure, but the ball has to climb a four-foot high wall and is likely to die well short of the back flag.  Leave it back in the fairway and wedge on, or leave your fate to the golf gods.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Scott Warren

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Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #180 on: May 26, 2011, 07:00:01 PM »
John,

That section of the 16th fairway right in front of the green is below sea level, as such it is always a bit damper than the rest of the course and the grass is always more lush. A wedge, gap wedge, sand wedge... whatever you like... is fine there. The turf is never as tight there as the rest of the course.

Noel Freeman

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Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #181 on: May 26, 2011, 07:39:34 PM »
When Tuco joined Deal, I dunno it was so long ago, about a decade or so I think Chappers was still out with his billy club nicking guys with stockings on their heads out pinching wallets or something. I digress.. But I eagled the 16th once in a friendly that I needed to get into the club.  Mr. David Dobby and I were playing fourball against two long time members and it was AS after 15.  David's back was quite bothersome then and he was out of the hole while I had hit my first shot in the right rough (wind SW about 15mph).  I hacked out with a hybrid to 60y short of the green over right of the valley (about 15 yards right of the knob) and the pin was middle right.  All three Englishmen pitied my third as they thought there was no way I could get it close and most likely would be well to make 5.  But oh I had a good lie and a lob wedge.  I hit a ball with so much spin on it, Newton couldnt calculate the rotations and it bounced once and spun back in the jar for an eagle.  One of my opponents said with a wry smile, "Well that was rather disappointing!"  Mr. Dobby looked at me and said Eagle! After two horrid shots not even near the fairway, Eagle!  

That's how Tuco plays the 16th.

Noel Freeman plays it with the SW to 80 yards and full lob wedge.. With a northerly, it is really hard to hold that green sometimes, I've had 5-6 eagle putts but never holed one..



Sean_A

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Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #182 on: May 27, 2011, 02:00:42 AM »
Spangles

On #3, by hook or crook one must get past the drop down to the green in two if the pin is up front.  Being short is awful and a bit like crazy golf.  With that same pin position (either side of the green) my goal is to hit the approach to the right side where the green has been extended.  Its a gathering point and not too bad a putt from over there, but still very 3 puttable.  

#16, I have never reached this green in two as the wind has never been from a favourable direction for my ball shape.  If the pin is back its pretty straight forward hitting from the lush valley short of the green - pick your approach distance.  I don't bother with a pick and just bang a hybrid up there and see what gives.  The hole is very tolerant of foozled and generally crap second shots.  If the pin is up front I don't really know what to do.  I think I have only seen this a few times.  A layup for full spin effect seems reasonable, but its still a very hard shot.  Its a totally different hole depending on front or back hole location.  

Ciao  
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jamie Barber

Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #183 on: May 27, 2011, 05:33:03 AM »
I think you need to rename this thread from KENT KALEIDOSCOPE to DEAL LOVE-IN :)

I think 3 and 16 are good holes but in all honestly you need a bit of luck to hit either in two. When we played on Saturday I somehow got my drive on 3 to stick between those 2 eye bunkers, then I hit 7 iron which when long through the green (I then took 3 from the edge). On 16 that was back against the wind and it was drive then 5 wood which was a bit low and got a nice killing bounce of the shoulder to finish about 35 ft from the hole. This was of course with the mythical prevailing wind.

Personally I think the the par3's are Ok if a bit dull. I like 3, 10, 13, 16 and 17 best. For whatever reason 6 doesn't float my boat.

IMHO the best par3s on the Kent coast are 3 of the 6 at Prince's. Incidentally, I must post updates to Sean's pictures above to show the same holes as they look now and the new Dormy houses.


Sean_A

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Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #184 on: May 27, 2011, 05:55:37 AM »
J

Yes, I think #s 2 and 8 on the Dunes are superb with the 8th getting my vote as comfortably the best par 3 of the Kaleidoscope.  I also like the Colt-like 2nd very much as well.  The Dunes is a cracking nine on a truly under-rated course.  Now, when is the club gonna get serious and just call the Shore/Dunes the 18 hole course and the Himalaya the 9 holer?  It bugs me when a club thinks they swap out three nines and believe they are equal.  Which 27 hole facility in the world can do this and actually be right?  I spose there is bound to be some out there, but I haven't experienced it? 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jamie Barber

Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #185 on: May 27, 2011, 06:32:45 AM »
I think 7th Dunes is up there too, a bunkerless dune to dune par 3 to a diagonal green. It's easy to get a 4 if you play left but easy to get a lot worse if you push it a little.

I know what you mean about the 27 holes but I think you are harsh on the Himalayas 9. The 1st isn't very inspiring (although improved a little by a new bunker left and pushing the fairway more right behind the dune) but I think 6-9 are very good. This 9 needs work but I also think it has a lot of potential as you get to play holes which require a bit more shot shaping. Although the routing wouldn't work I'd like to replace 2 on shore (2 and 8 ) and 9 on Dunes with 6,7 and 9 from Hims. The club is 2 years into the Troongolf mangement and things are definitely getting better and there's a bit more life around the place (although being Open year that's also a factor).

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #186 on: May 28, 2011, 03:00:10 AM »
Missing eagle putt from 18" on 16 was a low point especially as we were playing foursomes.....my partner was muchos unhappy.

3 & 16 both have oodles of quirk and to be frank require a slight element of good fortune. However isn't that what a 500yd par 5 should be all about? Hit your second within 20yds of the green and both holes produce a good chance of a 4 or a 6!
Cave Nil Vino

JNC Lyon

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Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #187 on: May 28, 2011, 10:09:24 AM »

#16, I have never reached this green in two as the wind has never been from a favourable direction for my ball shape.  If the pin is back its pretty straight forward hitting from the lush valley short of the green - pick your approach distance.  I don't bother with a pick and just bang a hybrid up there and see what gives.  The hole is very tolerant of foozled and generally crap second shots.  If the pin is up front I don't really know what to do.  I think I have only seen this a few times.  A layup for full spin effect seems reasonable, but its still a very hard shot.  Its a totally different hole depending on front or back hole location.  

Ciao  

Sean,

I think your statement about 16 that "the hole is very tolerant of foozled and generally crap second shots" is exactly what makes the hole so interesting.  The low-lying hollow on the second shot is, after all, "The Valley of Inglorious Security."  The golfer can hit two non-descript shots to get into that valley and still have a great chance at a 5 or a 4.  On the other hand, a golfer can hit two great shots and make a 4, or he can hit two great shots and make 6, depending on his fortune.  This is what links golf is all about: a balance of skill and fortune.  Remember, the golfer can hit two crappy shots into the valley, but he still has to execute from there to make a good number.  Ultimately, the 16th can be played all sorts of ways, and it is fun for a golfer at any level.  For that reason, it is a great par five.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE or I Was Wrong
« Reply #188 on: August 06, 2013, 02:11:28 PM »
Young JNC

There is no question 16 is a great par 5.

All, please see the updated Deal part of this tour on page 1.

I am stunned that Doak rated Ashdown above Deal.  The crime of the century?

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 02:15:55 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Brent Hutto

Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE: Updated Deal Pix
« Reply #189 on: August 06, 2013, 02:32:11 PM »
That place don't look half bad. I might just up and go play there, maybe in just a few weeks!

Noel Freeman

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Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE: Updated Deal Pix
« Reply #190 on: August 06, 2013, 07:55:41 PM »
As far as I know given my last correspondence with Herr Doak, he has no been back to Deal since 1994.. I had invited him on several occasions but TD is a busy man.. Having played RAF several times, I think Tom would think otherwise now, but what do I know..


Sean_A

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Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE: Updated Deal Pix
« Reply #191 on: August 07, 2013, 04:30:35 AM »
Sean, what is your beef with the bunker short right on 3? I've been in their plenty of times when trying to avoid that left hill...seems ideally placed to me

Brian

1. The bunker is ugly and amateurish looking.  

2. The bunker is designed for the par 5 back tee - flat belly stuff.  There is absolutely no need for a bunker there for daily play.  The hole is 450ish yards with a blind second to funky green.  Too much attention here paid to how flat bellies play.  Wouldn't it be simpler to call the hole a par 4 for the flat bellies and get rid of the bunker?  Chasing extra yardage rarely leads to good design.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adam Lawrence

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Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE: Updated Deal Pix
« Reply #192 on: August 07, 2013, 06:43:21 AM »
Sean, what is your beef with the bunker short right on 3? I've been in their plenty of times when trying to avoid that left hill...seems ideally placed to me

Brian

1. The bunker is ugly and amateurish looking.  

2. The bunker is designed for the par 5 back tee - flat belly stuff.  There is absolutely no need for a bunker there for daily play.  The hole is 450ish yards with a blind second to funky green.  Too much attention here paid to how flat bellies play.  Wouldn't it be simpler to call the hole a par 4 for the flat bellies and get rid of the bunker?  Chasing extra yardage rarely leads to good design.

Ciao

In respect of the third, I wonder if there's any easy way to increase the temptation to hit driver and take the bunkers on. On Sunday morning, not having played the course for three years, I hit my driver without even thinking, and the ball finished high enough up the ridge to give me a view of the pin, and almost exactly 150 from the green. From there I had a comfortable punch eight iron to leave a 25 foot birdie putt (which I left short, setting the scene for the rest of the visit). But I'd never play the shot deliberately, it's too risky. If there was fairway cut to the left of the bunkers, and perhaps if the left dune could be softened a bit, it'd be a more realistic proposition. And I think it would improve the hole.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE: Updated Deal Pix
« Reply #193 on: August 07, 2013, 07:26:38 AM »
Adam

I too have been just left of those spectacle bunkers by accident, but with tons of roll.  I think you are right for the likes of us, to tempt guys to skip past those bunkers the left mound needs to be chopped and flattened a bit.  I am not sure that is worth doing though.  Maybe just remove the left spectacle (sounds too similar to testacle for me - gulp!) and create a 15 yard gap.  There are what, three other sets of testacles, so maybe a set can be sacrificed.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Noel Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE: Updated Deal Pix
« Reply #194 on: August 07, 2013, 12:51:36 PM »
Sean, what is your beef with the bunker short right on 3? I've been in their plenty of times when trying to avoid that left hill...seems ideally placed to me

Brian

1. The bunker is ugly and amateurish looking.  

2. The bunker is designed for the par 5 back tee - flat belly stuff.  There is absolutely no need for a bunker there for daily play.  The hole is 450ish yards with a blind second to funky green.  Too much attention here paid to how flat bellies play.  Wouldn't it be simpler to call the hole a par 4 for the flat bellies and get rid of the bunker?  Chasing extra yardage rarely leads to good design.

Ciao

Sean-

You really mystify me.  I really am saddened that you have been seduced by the boiled-beef culture of England.  After long and careful thought, I have had to take the step to write this which will perhaps be somewhat disturbing given our cordiality in the past.  I have come to the conclusion that I cannot remain in good stead to read your opinions or when they deal (pun intended) with a course I know well and are so wrong.

Undoubtedly,  the form of your golf views and thoughts contain the most profound truths as known to you but I am afraid they simply are egregious and tailored to your own hubristic reality tunnel which has no basis in fact.  Tuco would say the common refrain, “ Opinions are like arse-holes and everyone has one”, so you invariably would say so can you.

We live in a time of poor management of the game of golf where it is dying out and lacks fun.  This frightens those of us who subscribe to beauty and art in golf architecture rather than the slave of par, over-watered fairways and my course is harder than yours for the card and pencil hoi polloi.

No, it would be a silly kind of pride to debate that we can surrender the 3rd at Deal as a victim of such poor architecture.  I’m sure Martin Ebert would shudder to think any of his bunkering is amateurish as let us not stand on ceremony alone—revetted  pot bunkering is not exactly Dr. Mackenzie copying clouds in the sky.  But let me let you cling to your authority and Arble-ian sense of architecture safety and humor you.  Flat-bellies?  Seriously, do you recall that Deal plays half of the year into a northerly?  Have you played the course several or lets say 10 times in that wind to judge the architecture?  I assure you having the 3rd as a par 5 from the medal tees is not a shout out to the flatbellies.   Much of this has a familiar ring to me when you critique Deal.. I believe you’ve also said the 5th hole should play as a par 4.  Given the 16th was originally a par 4 at times, we would then have a championship course with NO par 5s potentially or one—given you imply the 3rd should play as a 450ish par 4 to a funky green.  I’m sure the reduction to par 69 or 68 would be rewarding to the members who know the course best and realize it has FLEXIBILITY in the design to play given the prevailing wind shift that happens per annum..

You critique the 13th as a poor driving hole and the 14th as too long for a man of your ilk.  Again, have you played those holes downwind where half of the year the cross bunkers (13) are in play and the drive requires some artistry or when 14 plays as a 5 iron. Guess not..

The unhappy effects of reading your critiques of Deal are quite devastating to me, because as well traveled as you are, it invalidates the realm of your comments to my sensibilities and hence not worth reading.  I’m not perfect either and given the choice between being a Deal puritan (pre-destined to like it) or a laisse-faire critic, I guess I’m Mayflower bound.  Deal appreciation society may be a topic of my inherent weaknesses but declaring golf holes that are ancient as favoring the flatbellies when they don’t is a crime in my book as is understanding simple hazard schematics which are for certain elemental conditions.

The more clearly I see your views, the more I invalidate them.  The more like the declaration of you are irrelevant to me for anything about golf architecture.

I expect this commentary will find a shrug of the shoulders and a fond so what.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 08:39:17 PM by Noel Freeman »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE: Updated Deal Pix
« Reply #195 on: August 07, 2013, 02:48:50 PM »
Tuco

Your thoughts on the matter couldn't have been that long nor careful.  Anyone with more than a few passing weeks of time in the UK knows the over-riding prevailing wind in southern England is from the southwest.  Sure, there are times when wind comes out of the northeast or the northwest - the northeast especially in the spring.  Last winter/spring was a prime example when we had prolonged northeasterly wind.  Be that as it may, southwesterly is the prevailing wind, the wind Deal will experience far more than from any other direction.  That is a fact.  

If you knew me, which you don't, you would know that I am not wed nor locked into any sort of opinion.  My opinions change with experience. What doesn't change is that I don't take any of this golf malarky very seriously at all. Golf is game hopefully played over interesting, charming and challenging courses, of which I include Deal.  Does this mean Deal is above criticism?  Apparently so. Be that as it may, I believe Deal has a very routine bunkering scheme which could be greatly improved.  

Sticking with the not knowing me theme, if you did, you would know I have played Deal something like 25 times over the course of 20+ years. And yes, I have played the course in a northeastern wind.  Does this make me an expert?  Far from it.  Do I need to be an expert to offer an opinion?  Absolutely not.  It is your choice to listen or not.  As you hinted, I am not overly bothered either way.  Although, I hold no grudge nor ill-will toward yourself.  That isn't my bag.  Having fun on courses and shooting the shit is my bag and I hope to do that at Deal many more times in the future.  Perhaps we could even meet up for game.  

Ciao

Mystifying One.

  

 
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 03:57:56 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE: Updated Deal Pix
« Reply #196 on: August 07, 2013, 03:33:00 PM »
The two far bunkers on 3 are not designed to tempt people to drive past them. They were a formidable second shot hazard 70 years ago and still create issues if the drive isn't on the short stuff. Just like the 2nd, 5th and 10th the tighter line from the tee is rewarded by a view of the pin and or an easier shot. There is plenty of room down the left but the second shot is blind, flirt with the bunker (which has been softened) for the best line and view of the pin.

13 will be getting a new back tee as too many good players hit iron to stay short of the three cross bunkers.

Sean I'd be interested to hear how you'd change the bunkering and what Donald Steel and latterly Martin Ebert missed. Deal has 8 greens without greenside bunkers and its still a course that requires a strong short game.
Cave Nil Vino

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE: Updated Deal Pix
« Reply #197 on: August 07, 2013, 06:49:15 PM »
Chappers

The first and best thing Deal could do to improve their bunkering is to widen the fairways so the bunkers mean something other than punishing a so-so shot on #s 7, 9, 11, 13 & 15.  If the course is deemed too easy for doing this then the bunkers are in the wrong spots.  Second, fix up the stoney area to the rear of #8 green so a guy hitting a good shot (literally 1 yard past a bunker) with 20+mph downwind has a respectable lie when his ball predictably goes long.  Third, shorten the 14th so in effect there is more space (less club in) in a 20+mph crosswind.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Michael Whitaker

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Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE: Updated Deal Pix
« Reply #198 on: August 10, 2013, 07:26:36 AM »
I would like to see #1 fairway widened to the right. The hole is reminiscent of the first at TOC... except for its width. If the hay on the right were cut back to the road it would provide a choice of angles to counter the wide variety of possible pin positions. In addition, opening the right side of the fairway would bring the OB into play for players choosing that route (voluntarily or involuntarily).

The 1st at Deal:

"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: KENT KALEIDOSCOPE: Updated Deal Pix
« Reply #199 on: August 10, 2013, 07:40:38 AM »
Mike,

Robin and I had a similar discussion last Monday. The hole could do with more width, and I like your idea of widening to the right.

Eases you into the round more and would speed up play. Thre green has enough to defend it even with a far wider fairway.

It was intetresting seeing RCP again after a near-three-year break. I am sure a lot of green surface has been reclaimed, especially on 3, 9 & 15, condition of 9-11 massively improved and keeping the back of #4 longer so balls stop before the hay makes sense.

Driving on #5 without the power station is much more challenging. No features to aim at and little definition on the ground make it hard to select a line and commit to it.

Drove back to London after 72 holes with a heavy heart. I hope it's not three years before I see my friends and my "home" course again.


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