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Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Nicklaus on "the raters"
« on: May 08, 2003, 11:10:41 AM »
From Rick Reilly's new book "Who's Your Caddy?" (in which he caddies for the likes of Jack Nicklaus, John Daly, Donald Trump and Deepak Chopra):

"Course ratings is all politics," [Nicklaus] says. "It's flat-out who's best at kissing the ass of the course raters."

Reilly notes that Nicklaus has not allowed raters on The Bear Club in Florida. Now, is Nicklaus's statement sour grapes because the raters aren't wild about his courses, or is Carnac right again?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Nigel_Walton

Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2003, 11:31:10 AM »
The bad news is some raters are easily influenced. The good news is most aren't and most find their way onto courses, whether they are "invited" as raters or not.

If I had a course where I had a lot of my reputation invested and I had a lot of downside in the results of the ratings, I would probably make the same statement Mr. Nicklaus makes. That way, if people see your course and don't like it, you can just claim they didn't see it. Of course, people did see it, but who can prove that?

And isn't Jack a rater himself?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Nick_Ficorelli

Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2003, 01:14:40 PM »
If I was Jack I'd hate em too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2003, 01:19:55 PM »
Funny thing about the Bear's Club... while true they do not welcome raters (I know, I tried), they did make the GW Top 100 America's Best Modern list.  Enough people saw it and thought highly of it.

I disagree with Jack's comments as kissing doesn't make up for inferior design and most truly great places are getting their due.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2003, 05:05:43 PM »
Rick - you must be in the publishing field.  This book is not out yet.  A literary agent friend of mine gave me this book to review for him 2 weeks ago.  I thought it was classic Reilly - just plain witty and fun to read.  Nicklaus does seem very pissy about raters but otherwise that chapter on The Bear puts him in pretty good light.  JC
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2003, 05:41:15 PM »
Jonathan,

The book is out,

I bought it at Borders last tuesday, along with "Lost Links" and "Rough Meditations"

Borders has an excellent golf section, including books on Architecture, and they'll order almost anything for you with a
3-5 day delivery.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2003, 07:24:04 PM »
Didn't know that, thanks Pat
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2003, 11:15:20 PM »
Jonathan -- I have a review copy, so I'll take Patrick's word for it that it's in the stores and on Amazon. I agree with you that Nicklaus comes off very well -- which particularly interested me since Yankee pitcher David Wells says in his new autobiography that Nicklaus is one of those people he met and immediately decided was one of the biggest assholes he'd ever met. (Disclaimer: I've never met J.N., or D.W. or R.R., for that matter. It's all hearsay to me.)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2003, 04:52:59 AM »
The Nicklaus quote about raters was in an excerpt from the book that is printed in SI this week.
I find it entirely consistent with the man that he would find something other than himself to blame with the way that his courses are evaluated by various raters.  In that regard, he is probably much like the rest of us when others of lesser accomplishments are critical of our work.  Its just with Nicklaus, it never, ever varies.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2003, 04:53:41 AM »
Rick -

The photographer who did that 'Red Baron' shoot of me that was in Links a few months ago was Maurice Harmon.  The previous month he had shot Nicklaus in jacket and tie standing behind an armchair at The Bear's Club, which became the cover of April Links.  Maurice was telling me about it over a beer.  He said JN was the most rude, demanding, impatient subject he had had in 20 years of sports photography.

I have heard the same about Norman.  Sally Jenkins brother (PGA photograpgher) once told me put a TV camera in front of the Shark and when the light goes on its "howsit mate?".  Light goes off its "out of my face asshole".

I also have met neither man.

JC
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2003, 05:03:02 AM »
I also loved the chapter on Daly - his Big John aint referring to his swing!!!  Chapter on the Jill McCann - they go to the range before a woman's open and all talk about what whos wearing!  I also laughed when Reilly said that as a group, the tour women cuss like longshoremen!  The chapter on Chopek was also a stitch.  The mystical author was picking up golf and trying to meditate the ball around.  At a 36 handicap he wasnt being too successful.  He had two good holes and Reilly summed up the round.  "For two holes he shot like Tiger Woods, some others like Earl Woods and the rest like a bear in the woods!"

Reilly has got to be one of the best sports writers out there.

JC
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

T_MacWood

Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2003, 05:29:20 AM »
Nickalus has a point. Shadow Creek's debut in the top 10 was an illustration of what ass kissing (and maybe other bodily parts) will do for your ranking.

I'm not a fan of RR - a little too hip and witty for me. The modern version of SI specializes in hatchet jobs and RR leads the pack. He'd rake his mother over the coals if he thought it might sell magazines.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2003, 06:35:51 AM »
Tom - RR does bash at will but you must admit he's unparalleled in dreaming up similies and metaphors.  I think you would like "Who's Your Caddie?".

I once heard that Ron Whitten got married (I guess re-married) at Shadow Creek.  Can anyone confirm that?

JC
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2003, 08:01:08 PM »
I found Mr. Nicklaus' quote quite interesting:

>"Course ratings is all politics," [Nicklaus] says. "It's flat-out who's best at kissing the ass of the course raters."

If this is Mr. Nicklaus' real thought, I am saddened because I think he is missing the point.  I have met Mr. Nicklaus on a couple of occasions, and even had lunch with him at the Bear's Club, which I absolutely loved.

For the record, if you put out a quality product, the Raters will recognize it and the positive word will spread - as it has at the Bear's Club, despite their reluctance to allow Raters to visit.  

It saddens me to find out that some clubs are "too cool" to allow Raters to visit, such as the ones that claim that "we don't allow anyone of that calibur here." :P :-[ :'(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2003, 08:09:44 PM »
With or without Mr. Nicklaus' ok, the website for his new course near blackwolf run, "The Bull at Pinehurst Farms", is trumpeting the reviews it has gotten from local papers.  Obviously, this isn't the same as raters for the major folks.  The website is golfthebull.com.  Only the front 9 is open now, with the rest opening in June.  Played it, anyone?

Jeff Goldman
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
That was one hellacious beaver.

JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2003, 09:03:02 PM »

PR

Concerning the Bear's Club and Jack's decision to not be rated.
The Bear's Club, like many of Jack's courses, are high end real estate properties.  The Bear's Club had nearly a full membership very early after opening.  They paid very high dollars to join.  Jack's position was/is that the members are very happy with the course (because they joined) and it is just not necessary to have the course rated by anyone.  All they can get is a rating that could make the members feel less about their course.  And let's face it, raters that feel they are slighted in any way, will have a tendency to give the course a lower rating.  There is jealousy in this endeavor, because it is human nature.
The Bear's Club is not the first club to take this position.

As for the rating game being political, it is pretty hard to deny it is part of the scenario.  How do you explain Shadow Creek's initial ranking.  And that is not to be construed as a negative for SC, because I am quite sure it is a very nice, spectacular golf course.   Many great courses are acknowledged as they should be, but there are also many other outstanding courses that never even get acknowledged.   Whether we want to admit it or not, a certain look (regardless of strategy, interest or playability) has been the "look of choice" by many raters.
Sometimes that "look" will not work for a developer or site.  And ,as much as we all would like to have every course built today be a work of art/land sculpture etc., unfortunately it is just not always feasible.  That certainly doesn't mean that we don't try, however.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2003, 09:25:03 PM »
JWL,

Could Donald Trump draw the same conclusion about his course in West Palm Beach, based on the same reasoning that Jack utilizes in drawing his conclusions about The Bear's Club ?

How objective do you feel that Jack and Donald can be about their own properties/developments/golf courses ?

If they don't believe in their projects, who will ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2003, 06:10:01 AM »
Pat-I think you are doing a great disservice to Jack by grouping him in with Donald Trump. ;)  Frankly, if there is no longer any economic incentive to have people "rate" a course,(through membership sales or lot sales) why have them around?

I think it is quite possible that the ratings lists have hurt a few of the older courses as they get caught up in this "keep up with trumps game".

On another thread different people had mentioned stories about raters acting innappropriately at private clubs.  It would seem to me one such instance at a club should permanetly bar all raters at that site in the future.

I have played with a few "raters" and they all have been gentlemen, but I can see how they can be thought of differently because of a few idiots.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2003, 02:08:48 PM »

Redanman

I was certainly not implying a prejudice for or against Nicklaus design work by raters.  
I was speaking more specifically about "a look".  Nicklaus has at times captured that look, and has been acknowledged for it.  You are correct that their are many, many interesting golf courses, that for whatever reason, do not receive the acknowldegement that they may deserve.
Since you brought up GW ranking.  Wouldn't you agree that since Fazio got 19 courses in the top 100 on that list, that that would sufficient evidence that a certain "look" was receiving the most notoriety.  I don't believe any of those course have actually held a pro golf tournament on them, until maybe the redo they are playing this week.  I not real sure about that.  
I do know, however, that if the same raters, year after year, have a liking to a certain architect, or a dislikng to another architect, you can bet that will be reflected in the rating of the new courses.
I have been around this a long time, and this has not changed for many years.  Probably never will.
There is a lot of very good work being done by many architects today.  If rating systems are going to persist, I wish all could be acknowledged when they do something really good.
I like them all, BTW, blondes, brunettes, redheads, and even some streaky ones.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2003, 03:01:19 PM »
I'm curious how and why the raters have evolved. Surely using a twelve year old reference to SC's placement implies there is and has been no change in some particular look?

I've noticed the movement on the lists of certain styles of courses that seem to be over-taking anything that was being built 10-15 yrs ago. SH WH PD come to mind right away.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2003, 07:04:59 AM »
JWL,

Have you played Shadow Creek?  One way it may have gotten into the rankings that high is that it deserves it.  Believe me, it is that good.  If GD removed its fluff category, Shadow would still be damn close to the top ten.  What did you think when you played it?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Nicklaus on
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2003, 01:52:50 PM »
Jim, I have been accused by many to be a bit hard on many modern commericial designers, but the funny thing is that in my ballots, I'm pretty good, (or at least I think I'm pretty good!:)) or so I have been told at rating a golf course.

Point in example. I'm one of Fazio and Rees Jones biggest critics, yet, last year I rated one course from each that I hadn't rated before, Shadow Creek and Santaluz, and surprizingly, the one I would have thought would have been higher, actually came out about the same as the housing development/golf club.

David makes his point that Shadow Creek is really "that good" and I respect his point, but my point is that it is pretty highly over-rated. (Which in my opinion is deserving of being in the Top 50 but not Top 10 of the Golfweek ranking) David likes his Bridget Bardot, yet I like my Catherine Denueve, and in fact, think she is much better looking, yet, David would disagree with me anytime over this. BB is much more alive to him.

Santaluz has all of the basics I could really hate everything about a golf course, (housing, less then attractive bunker style, but very good placement; shoddy construction as far as paying attention to detail of tying-in the hillsides to the ground contours of the golf holes themselves) yet, I rated it about the same total as Shadow Creek, and if I had my choice, would play it over Shadow Creek simply because of how the bunkers are placed; the shaping of the green contours, which is heads and tails better then Shadow Creek, which has the least interesting green complexes I have ever seen on a Top 10 ranked course ever, which really should bring the course down, yet for some reason doesn't; and I think Santa Luz does in fact have some pretty strategically interesting golf holes, where as I don't think Shadow Creek comes anywhere as close, strategically. I think it is a mass of containment that gets quite repetitive in many areas

Is Shadow Creek deserving of a lower ranking then Santa Luz?

Here is where the fun begins!  NO! I don't think there is a better constructed course in the world then Shadow Creek, despite all of the gimmicks that come with it. That is what is most impressive about the place, and also, why it should be certainly celebrated, in my opinion, in the Top 25, but not Top 10, Top 15 or Top 20. If I had to pick a Fazio course that was better designed strategically, I would instantly say Shady Canyon or Quarry at La Quinta. But are they Top 100? This is the part that hilights just how close it is to be a Top 100 course and a Top 200. There really isn't much gap at all.

Now how would I rank these against, say, Strawberry Farms.... Believe it or not, I think that given the challenge of environmental concern, I think SF plays about as good as a golf course can play with all of that eco-area involved. Right next door at Shady Canyon, where it seemingly just as prevailiant, and isn't, probably thanks to the size and power of the Irvine Company, I would say that there are just as interesting holes at Strawberry Farms as there are at Shady Canyon, despite all of the glamour of one compared to the other. It is unfortunate that Strawberry Farms will never ever get the fanfair of Shady Canyon simply because of the glamour, which to me is another perfect example of the failure of the ratings being a success and the success of the ratings being a failure. And as I said before, I do it to hopefully make a difference, despite if I can get on the Bear Club or not. I respect their ideals to forgo ranking. It seems to be a popular take amongst certain new golf clubs, which is even more refreshing. They don't forbid raters, they just want them to get on the old fashioned way--by getting invited by a member! I really respect that.

As I told you one day at Strawberry Farms if you do remember some 5 or 6 years ago, I wish you could bring Jack here and let him see how a golf course could really be designed if he let you guys go at it without his certain specs. You responded to me that he Jack has taught you a lot more then I really knew, and even since then, he has developed a better, more descriptive style, that has gotten away from that neo-Dye look to a more influential and certainly more respectable style. I hope it continues.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2003, 02:06:45 PM »
Tommy,

As always, well said.  

To be perfectly honest, I do not believe Shadow Creek belongs in GD's top 10 (I do believe it belongs in GW's top 10 Modern).  When you add modern and classical, there are just too many good ones.  My point was more directed at JWL as to if he had played Shadow Creek or was just another person taking shots at Raters, Fazio and GD.  

Even you must admit that someone who is impressed by eye candy and what is truly an architectural marvel would be able to put Shadow Creek in a top ten and it would have nothing to do with sexual favors or any other innuendo.  I have played and paid for Shadow twice and think it is easily in the top 20 courses I have ever played (Out of close to 500 and about half of GD's top 100) and not once was I given hookers, favors or any other presents because I was a rater.  I know it is a futile wish, but I really would like people to restrict blanket criticisms of raters for their PERSONAL PREFERENCES.  The vast majority of us take it very seriously, are well trained, have no hidden agendas and simply may like different things from others.

PS - am I going to see you Saturday in LV.  We have a bottle of wine to drink and several arguments to settle.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2003, 04:57:47 PM »
David, I didn't realize that this was "the" weekend upcoming.

I'll call you sometime during the next few days, and we can talk. I have to see how I feel after two days of golf on Wednesday and Thursday after not playing for quite sometime.

Plus, Smith & Wollensky sounds pretty good! (If they let me through the door!) And yes, the vino too!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Nicklaus on "the raters"
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2003, 05:00:41 PM »
Also, I forgot to add that even though Jack may not think much of raters, so do I feel the same way about MOST professional golfers. If he can stereotype, so can I!

And that is his right in this wonderful country of ours.

Still that doesn't make-up for a million and a half golf holes that favor a high and long fade!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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