[Dan Herrmann]

Mike Young - Wow - powerful AND 100% accurate post.  I especially like the last sentence.

You said it, brother.  Once the CMAA took over, the era of the good golf club started to end.  Weddings and banquets became king because the guys running things were nothing but F&B types.  We had a GM that never set foot on the golf course, didn't know anything about the super and head pro, and only tried to make our club "the finest dining destination in the county."  Thank gawd he's gone now.

[Yancey_Beamer]

Tiger,
How are you doing?
Yancey

[Michael Huber]

This thread got me thinking, and I will present a few questions:

So what does it mean for most country clubs when the clubs do not cater to the golfer who really, really like to golf?  Can they survive (as Dan H. observed) as being the best destination for food in the county and so forth? 

At the average club, what is the percentage of total members that really like golf?  40%?  Why are the rest of the people members?

What is the percentage of total members that really like golf at the cream of the crop clubs? 

[Mike_Young]

This thread got me thinking, and I will present a few questions:

So what does it mean for most country clubs when the clubs do not cater to the golfer who really, really like to golf?  Can they survive (as Dan H. observed) as being the best destination for food in the county and so forth? 

At the average club, what is the percentage of total members that really like golf?  40%?  Why are the rest of the people members?

What is the percentage of total members that really like golf at the cream of the crop clubs? 

Mike,
IMHO golf clubs changed in the late 1970's....this was about the time that GM's really took hold of things and boards decided they needed to focus more on the business of golf than the golf itself....what I mean by this is that most clubs up until this time had as their primary goal taking care of the members....  Now we rarely see that goal as much as we see clubs taking on debt and setting goals with the object being to bring in more members......  Yet if more clubs were taking care of the prsent memebrs we would not have near the problems we have in golf presently....
Many will disagree and say that clubs would go under if an agressive membership drive was not a constant....I say that in many instances it would be the opposite...clubs would have less debt, better golf and satisifed members in older facilites and cheaper hamburgers....and new memebrs would seek them....
When clubs worked best for golfers...pros owned the shops, carts and made damn sure the members were taken care of....UNTIL we tear down some clubhouses, forget about weddings and large events and lightweight fairway units and scented towels on the practice tee...we have a problem....

[Tom_Doak]

At the average club, what is the percentage of total members that really like golf?  40%?  Why are the rest of the people members?
 

Michael:

At most clubs, it is still the case that many of the older generation are relics of a bygone era, staying a member of the club for reasons of pride and their own beliefs about community and society, and they are willing to keep paying dues for those beliefs as long as the dues don't get out of hand.  [They are now getting out of hand.]

The problem for golf is that our generation and those younger than us are not going to blindly pay for club membership the same way we pay for Social Security, expecting that it will all be well worth it when it's our turn to retire.  We know the system is in trouble, and the demographics are against us in precisely the same way.  That's really why the party is about to be over ... because the other 60% of members who don't use the club so much are going to wise up and stop subsidizing it.

It's different for the "cream of the crop clubs" as you put it ... they shouldn't have a shortage of golfers who want to be members at those, as long as they can manage their finances reasonably.  But, the cream is only 10% or so.

[Mike_Young]

Tom,
Do you really think it is as high as 10%?

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

I don't know if it's 10%.  I would think in every big city, one private club out of 10 stands out; but when you get to smaller towns with 2-5 clubs, I don't know if the percentage goes up, or falls to zero.

[Richard Hetzel]

This thread started me thinking. When I was younger, and much poorer, I belonged to a golf club. I was in the Army and I joined the Fort Jackson Golf Club when I was stationed there. For E-5 and below the fees were $15 per month, and then .50 per nine holes. As you advanced in rank you paid more, although it was very affordable. My membership even gave me access to other Air Force and Army base courses. I loved hanging out with everyone at the course, it was a great place to be and I spent ALL my extra time there. Although this arrangement was a killer deal, it wasn't worth staying in the Army to keep it!

Now that I can afford to be a member at a private club, I am not. Mostly because I am on this kick of trying to play 40-50 new courses every year and I enjoy going on 3 or 4 golf trips with my buddies each year. That will soon end as my kids get a bit older and I will be forced to join a club close to the house. All my kids will play and taking 6 to a public course will not be an option. Luckily for me, MOST of the public courses near me won't be missed once I join a club.

I think it all depends on the club and how much at home you feel there. Places like Holston Hills CC (TN) and Columbia CC (SC) immediately come to mind; those are places were I could join, fit right in and be happy playing there and hanging out all the time. I think finding the right club, and nearby is the key.

[Dan Herrmann]

Richard,
The real reason we're in a club is because it's cheaper....  You see, my wife and I play all the time, and paying 2 green fees every time was killing us.  Let's say you pay $80 - that's $160 per day.  Let's play 2 days and you're up to $320.  Multiply that by 4 and you can see the benefits.

Times have certainly changed, though.  I payed $60 per year to play unlimited golf at either of Tonawanda, NY's 2 munis.  Yeah, I frequently had to queue for 2 hours to play, but it was summer vacation from college, so who cared?  Besides, it was a lot better than my part time job at Kmart!

[Richard Hetzel]

Dan.

Agreed, but if you live in a cold climate you have to factor in that you are paying for something you cannot use 5 months out of the year (more or less). If you are off in the summer, like I am, you can maximize your rounds to make up for it! I just can't imagine taking a family of 6 golfing 1-2 times per month at a public course. At that point, it is cheaper to join a club. Of course, if said club has a pool, I can sell this to my wife that much easier!

[Chris Flamion]

I have weighed this over and over in my head.  As someone who spent a bit of time around a club growing up I am all but certain I would never "fit in" at most of the clubs in my area.  The idea that every course around here(I know of 1 that doesn't) seems to put the club ahead of golf makes me very timid to wade into the financial requirements of joining a club.  Now all that said, I play very quick, I play a lot, my wife plays, and both kids have shown interest if not talent.  I know that fiscally it makes a lot of sense to join a country club, but I just can't get over the thought of being there as much as I would be and be less important than the bride that just walked in. I also have other peeves, I carry and that is a nono here.  I would almost never eat there, so that would be wasted "requirement".  

As someone who works in the wedding industry I am scared that golf will be on life support soon.  I have seen a number of public courses add massive updated club houses to support corporate outings and wedding banquets.  I don't know the numbers but I have a hard time believing that the 5 million+ spent on those public owned clubhouses is going to be bringing in more money than putting a pinch of that into the golf course, and what that could have brought in.

[Tom_Doak]

It would be fascinating to know what % of Golf Club Atlas' 1500 participants are actually dues-paying members of a private club.  I'm thinking it's less than half ... and what does that say about our business?

[Dan Herrmann]

Chris - so sad, but so true.

I wonder i the founders of the Greatest Game could have envisioned a world where golf clubs were becoming wedding factories...

Just go and elope and give us back our game

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom D - what I don't think has been brought up much in this thread (but has on many other threads) is Time. The current generation of parents has - or believes it has - less time for golf on a regular/weekly basis; so for Golfer X, the financial commitment to a 'structure' that requires that weekly commitment in order to be feasible makes less and less sense. Which is to say yet again that Mr. Keiser and the Bandon model is an idea that perfectly fits the times.  Golfer X will allow himself (and spend the money on) one trip a year over four days if he can play four great golf courses.  The true golf-only resort complex -- 2, 3, 4 courses -- works now, if the courses provide a memorable golf-only experience.

Peter

[JR Potts]

I love being a member of a club.  My wife loves it, my kids love it and my family loves it.  I think of my club like my summer lake house (although it is 13 minutes from my house).  I can play golf early on weekends, have a beer or two with my group and head over the pool to swim with my kids, play with my kids and even play some golf or tennis with them.  In the winters I can head out to the gun club on Fridays and weekends and shoot some skeet, some trap or just hang out and watch football or hoops.  I don't know what I would do without it.

I spend some of my best times there with my dad and a great group of golfing friends.  I get a lot of business from the club as relationships are forged over drinks, golf, dinner or just hanging out.  And, I've made a lot of friends at other local and not-so local clubs through interactions and events with other clubs.

The country club life is a good life for me and my family...but I'm also at a club that is a "family first club"...and I'm grateful to be able to partake.

[Carl Johnson]

Everyone is different and every club is different.  If you can find one that fits you, great.  If not, well, there are other options.  Beyond that, ask yourself, do you want the club to be like you want it to be, without putting anything into it yourself?  Or, do you accept that as a member you have both the right and responsibility to do your part to make the club a happy place for you?

[C. Squier]

Maybe I'm just more agreeable than others, but I get a kick out of people who say they don't think they have anything in common with an entire group of 250+ people who have committed a large amount of money to play golf.  Local people at that!  Seriously, if you can't find a group of guys to have fun playing with at a local club, you're either not trying hard enough or should find a cave in the mountains to live in.

[Bill_McBride]

...

[J_ Crisham]

Referring to the original post, you have to understand Bogey is a banker.

They are less popular than lawyers these days.

Sad but true......

Keep in mind that Clint is a banker as well and sometimes even he plays in a 2 some at OFCC!
                                                                                             Jack

[Mike Sweeney]

It would be fascinating to know what % of Golf Club Atlas' 1500 participants are actually dues-paying members of a private club.  I'm thinking it's less than half ... and what does that say about our business?

Tom

Since 70% of the clubs in America are public it would seem that GCA is pretty much an accurate reflection of the golfing community.

[C. Squier]

Referring to the original post, you have to understand Bogey is a banker.

They are less popular than lawyers these days.

Sad but true......

Keep in mind that Clint is a banker as well and sometimes even he plays in a 2 some at OFCC!
                                                                                             Jack

Jack, that's a sad representation of those still willing to play with me being a banker 

[Chris Flamion]

Maybe I'm just more agreeable than others, but I get a kick out of people who say they don't think they have anything in common with an entire group of 250+ people who have committed a large amount of money to play golf.  Local people at that!  Seriously, if you can't find a group of guys to have fun playing with at a local club, you're either not trying hard enough or should find a cave in the mountains to live in.

Clint-

Not that this is meant expressly for me, but I did take a bit of exception to it.  Given the fact that I grew up in a farm community, my summer job was at the local factory with my dad (until about 17), and then went to school in the heart of the South.  Factor in that I work as a coach/trainer and spend a large portion of my time working weddings I foresee myself struggling a bit to "fit in" at the standard Chicago area country club. 

Now obviously there are 200+ members at most clubs and I would be certain to find a good number of people whom I would get along with quite well.  But I am fully knowledgeable that the politics and some of the clique issues would drive me insane.  While I do have a wife who plays and 2 kids the "country club" part of the equation isn't what I would call my ideal environment. 

I have met a number of great GCA people in my short time on the boards, but I know that the people who bleed golf for the club are few and far between.  And that is what makes me a little timid about joining a club.

Now put me at a true golf club......

[mike_beene]

we just passed a locker room improvement and $7500 is due sept 1st.The squabbling that follows makes playing golf less fun. I am not thrilled about more clubhouse money but if you quit do you regret it?

[PThomas]

I got to join Ravisloe for a few years as a member due to the great deals they were offering at the time...and I loved it!  a good course, terrific food, a wonderful for pool for all of us to use.....

but after my initial 2 year membership deal expired, monthly dues almost doubled, and i had to let it go

i'd love to be a member somewhere else...there is an awesome course 10 minutes from my house but with 3 girls in private schools, one of whom is entering college in the fall, there is just no way i can afford it

and i'm  certainly not poor, my wife and i both work and do okay...but its simply too expensive...now maybe if i didnt live in Chicagoland......

Ryan Potts post on this subject is quite good i think

[Steve Lang]

  sorry to hear that Bogey.. but you gotta do what you gotta do..

I've been a member at WCC since 1992.. it seems I've/we've played with hundreds of folks.. done all the usual organized/impromptu things, but now just play when, how we want.. don't need anything organized.. but don't ignore either..

oh and like real estate, i have location location location location location, location location and location accessible..

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