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Wayne_Kozun

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Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #75 on: June 21, 2010, 01:30:21 PM »
I would hope the guy would learn to say "about 10 or slightly above". Having sat in on a green committee meeting where the superintendent is forced to defend not having absolute consistency tells me a braggart saying his greens will be at 10.3 does no one any good.
Perhaps when you are the successor of OTM you have a special dispensation?

Garland Bayley

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Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #76 on: June 21, 2010, 01:34:10 PM »
I would hope the guy would learn to say "about 10 or slightly above". Having sat in on a green committee meeting where the superintendent is forced to defend not having absolute consistency tells me a braggart saying his greens will be at 10.3 does no one any good.
Perhaps when you are the successor of OTM you have a special dispensation?

My understanding is that OTM was perfectly fine with having different greens run at significantly different speeds. Perhaps the successor should learn from OTM. :)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Andrew Summerell

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Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner New
« Reply #77 on: June 21, 2010, 05:11:51 PM »
McDowell’s win didn’t surprise me at all. He rarely throws away a chance.

… but I think you are all missing the point. McDowell was the only guy wearing a cardigan, which obviously helped him to victory.


« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 04:56:41 PM by Andrew Summerell »

Phil Benedict

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Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #78 on: June 21, 2010, 05:26:40 PM »
One of the good things about golf is that the 'right guy' always wins, because it's so objective and there isn't any third party intervention.  There aren't any bad calls or judges mucking with the outcome.

Kirk Gill

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Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #79 on: June 21, 2010, 05:31:35 PM »
I found it interesting that the broadcasters mentioned that the scoring on Sunday was actually lower, overall, than on the previous days of the tournament, and it was those at or near the lead that struggled the most. Maybe the greens were more "awful" per Tiger's comments earlier in the week, or perhaps the pressure got to them.

I remember also hearing Phil at one point, after a near miss on an approach, say something like "I gave it a try and didn't make it." That might just not be the approach to take in this particular tournament, no? I'm sure someone out there remembers exactly what his comment was, and on what hole.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Adam Clayman

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Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #80 on: June 21, 2010, 08:04:06 PM »
Kirk, Your comment on earlier in the competition may be appropriate.

The corrective watering may have given some of the Poa that little extra juice to be puffier in spots.

Back when Mark Michaud was super, every June he would take the greens down to U.S. Open conditions. One reason for this was to acclimate the greens to the annual stress. Another reason was because Pebble Beach was always willing and able to hold the Open on a moments notice, if the host venue ever had some turf issue or tragedy. A 3rd reason could be so that he could learn how to handle those greens under the different circumstances mother nature can throw at a venue.

If anyone wants to know more about Pebble's greens, they should contact Mark for his opinion and expertise.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

J_ Crisham

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Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #81 on: June 21, 2010, 08:17:38 PM »
I like Terry's choice of words: unlikely. Really, if someone told you the top 5 would include McDowell, Havret, Els, Woods and Michelson, who would've predicted that would be the order? Unlikely is the perfect word.
...

I don't like Terry's choice of words. They sound just like his old tag line, something to the effect of "always sure, often wrong" which sounds perfect for a lawyer that has to stand up and make a confident argument even though he may be totally wrong. Thinking this was an unlikely result seems to be just ignorance. You have the player from Europe that is the top player in recent weeks, used to playing harder surfaces come in and win on a hard surface using that top flight game. It seems a highly likely result to me.
 
Garland,  I believe Terry's comment is spot on regarding an unlikely champion. The fact is Els, Tiger, and Phil have about 20 majors between them. The odds were good that when Dustin imploded one of these war horses would jump in the lead. Graeme is a hell of a player but his previous experience at Pebble is minimal, his success in majors was nonexistent and on the final day of a major experience  is the greatest asset- ask a major champion- I have, and that was the answer I received from a past US Open champion. I am very happy McD won- it will be a crowning acheivement for his young career.  In closing you can eliminate the cheap shots at Terry regarding the often wrong/never in doubt tag line. No need to get personal -he stated an opinion regarding the golf yesterday, nothing more or less.  Wish you well,  Jack
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 08:20:37 PM by Jack Crisham »

PThomas

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Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #82 on: June 21, 2010, 08:27:36 PM »
I actually think he fits in well with some of the recent champions of this event - Ogilvy, Cabrera, etc..




but Cabrera has won 2 different majors!

and Terry, you said he didnt make a birdie....but dont forget Faldo won his first Open with 18 pars!
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 08:32:33 PM by Paul Thomas »
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Terry Lavin

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Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #83 on: June 21, 2010, 08:54:05 PM »
Sheesh, for the tenth time, I said he was an unlikely winner, not an undeserving winner.  He was unlikely even to get in, if you look at the stories about how three players in the Nelson had a chance to eliminate him from qualifying.  But he was also unlikely because a Euro hadn't won in 40 years and he had just won his last event, which usually makes it difficult.  Plus he had never won a major.  That makes him definitionally unlikely.  I'm guessing that Ladbrokes had some high odds on him before the championship.  He's not an outlier, having won overseas and having compiled a great collegiate record, but there surely were dozens of more likely winners than he was.  So my question is will he prove to be Michael Campbell or Retief Goosen?  Is this the springboard or the swan song?  Who knows?  I'd like to think he's got some more hardware headed his way, but this is a fickle game.

As for the birdie, I thought he had one birdie and carded a 74.  When is the last time that somebody won a major after trailing after 54 holes and finished his tournament with a three over score with only one birdie.  Speaking of unlikely, that's a bit of a stretch for a final day "game story", but that's what happened.  It's a testament to his grit and his ability to deal with the setup, the conditions and the unbelievable stress of a US Open, even if it wasn't all that predictable beforehand.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 08:55:37 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Phil McDade

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Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #84 on: June 21, 2010, 10:42:21 PM »
When is the last time that somebody won a major after trailing after 54 holes and finished his tournament with a three over score with only one birdie.  Speaking of unlikely, that's a bit of a stretch for a final day "game story", but that's what happened.  

Terry:

Not sure if you've heard of it, but there's this course in Chicago -- it's called Medinah ;D -- where this very scenario (pretty much) played out in 1975. Frank Beard held the third-round lead, four strokes ahead of the Amana man himself -- Lou Graham. Beard closed with a 78, including bogeys in 16 and 17, to fall one shot out of a playoff. Bob Murphy also fell one shot out of the playoff after bogeying the 18th in the final round. Crenshaw, too, missed the playoff by one stroke after dumping his tee shot in the lake fronting the par 3 17th on Sunday. Jack Nicklaus was two shots out of the playoff, and could've won save for three straight bogeys on the three closing holes in the final round. Graham shot two-over on his final round (73), and could've clinched the title except he bogeyed the 18th in the final round.

Must've been the set-up. ;)

(Graham and John Mahaffey battled it out in a Monday playoff, with Graham's even-par 71 beating Mahaffey by two strokes.)

It got even worse in 1985, when Wisconsin's own Andy North, trailing Two-Chip Chen by two strokes going into the final round, somehow managed a four-over 74 at Oakland Hills that still won him the title by a stroke over three of the more unlikely runners-up in Open history -- Chen, Dave Barr of Canada, and Dennis Watson of Zimbabwe.


Garland Bayley

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Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #85 on: June 21, 2010, 11:59:17 PM »
If you ignore facts, you can argue till you are blue in the face the unlikely argument.

Here are some facts that are some are being a little loose with.

1. Is is not unlikely to have a first time winner for a Major championship. In the last 20 years more than 50% of the time a first time winner has won. And that is during an era when TWoods has been sucking all the possibilities out.

2. G Mac, has performed well in past major championships. Hardly a record that would be non-existent success, unless you meant non-existent winner.

3. He did not win his last event.

4. Saying he is European makes it unlikely is kind of silly. There was a time when there were lots of European winners and there such a time will come again. Given this drought happened during a time when the Ryder Cup was going most often to Europe, it is clear that it would be highly likely to have a European winner.



"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #86 on: June 22, 2010, 01:11:18 AM »
... In closing you can eliminate the cheap shots at Terry regarding the often wrong/never in doubt tag line. No need to get personal -he stated an opinion regarding the golf yesterday, nothing more or less.  Wish you well,  Jack

I thought I was complementing him on it being a great attitude for a lawyer that has to confidently argue a case. But, if I am wrong and he is not a lawyer, and I mistakenly called him one, then he has my most sincere apology.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #87 on: June 22, 2010, 02:41:45 AM »


but Cabrera has won 2 different majors!

and Terry, you said he didnt make a birdie....but dont forget Faldo won his first Open with 18 pars!
[/quote]

I thought McDowell birdied the 5th?

Martin Toal

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #88 on: June 22, 2010, 03:00:42 AM »
... In closing you can eliminate the cheap shots at Terry regarding the often wrong/never in doubt tag line. No need to get personal -he stated an opinion regarding the golf yesterday, nothing more or less.  Wish you well,  Jack

I thought I was complementing him on it being a great attitude for a lawyer that has to confidently argue a case. But, if I am wrong and he is not a lawyer, and I mistakenly called him one, then he has my most sincere apology.


Oh, he is way more than a lawyer .......

If Terry said that G Mac didn't make a birdie, then that is what happened and the USGA will have to go back and correct the record!

Sean_A

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Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #89 on: June 22, 2010, 03:45:33 AM »
What a wierd thread.  I don't know how anybody could say McD was a likely winner.  Who here won loads of dosh betting on him?  Bottom line, if he isn't a likely winner (step up all those who feel McD was), then McD was an unlikely winner.  This isn't rocket science folks - get a grip.

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Martin Toal

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #90 on: June 22, 2010, 05:41:10 AM »
What a wierd thread.  I don't know how anybody could say McD was a likely winner.  Who here won loads of dosh betting on him?  Bottom line, if he isn't a likely winner (step up all those who feel McD was), then McD was an unlikely winner.  This isn't rocket science folks - get a grip.

Ciao 

I am not sure about a likely winner, but I felt McD was a decent each way bet, and said so in another golf forum. He had 2 good finishes right before, including a win, and is straight with a tidy short game. He also has good nerve.

I don't bet.

Phil McDade

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Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #91 on: June 22, 2010, 07:02:25 AM »

4. Saying he is European makes it unlikely is kind of silly. There was a time when there were lots of European winners and there such a time will come again. Given this drought happened during a time when the Ryder Cup was going most often to Europe, it is clear that it would be highly likely to have a European winner.


Garland:
A European-based/born player hadn't won the US Open in 40 years. This, despite Europe since 1970 unquestionably developing better players -- Seve, Langer, Faldo, Monty, Harrington, Olazabal -- than it did prior to 1970. You might argue that -- well, the odds are diminishing, then, that this 40-year winless streak would continue (especially since Euro continues to develop quality players along the likes of McElroy, Donald, et al.). I'd argue it's fair, in the face of a 40-year winless streak, to call a victory by a European player unlikely.

Adam Clayman

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Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #92 on: June 22, 2010, 07:41:58 AM »
Did anyone mention him on the "who will win" thread?  I did misinterpret Terry's semantics. Sorry
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mark Pearce

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Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #93 on: June 22, 2010, 07:44:50 AM »

4. Saying he is European makes it unlikely is kind of silly. There was a time when there were lots of European winners and there such a time will come again. Given this drought happened during a time when the Ryder Cup was going most often to Europe, it is clear that it would be highly likely to have a European winner.


Garland:
A European-based/born player hadn't won the US Open in 40 years. This, despite Europe since 1970 unquestionably developing better players -- Seve, Langer, Faldo, Monty, Harrington, Olazabal -- than it did prior to 1970. You might argue that -- well, the odds are diminishing, then, that this 40-year winless streak would continue (especially since Euro continues to develop quality players along the likes of McElroy, Donald, et al.). I'd argue it's fair, in the face of a 40-year winless streak, to call a victory by a European player unlikely.
Or overdue?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Terry Lavin

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Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #94 on: June 22, 2010, 08:36:01 AM »
Did anyone mention him on the "who will win" thread?  I did misinterpret Terry's semantics. Sorry

One poster here did pick him as did Mr. Schofield, the British broadcaster.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Mark Pearce

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Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #95 on: June 22, 2010, 08:42:17 AM »
Did anyone mention him on the "who will win" thread?  I did misinterpret Terry's semantics. Sorry

One poster here did pick him as did Mr. Schofield, the British broadcaster.
Ken Schofield is the Chief Exec of the European Tour, rather than a broadcaster.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Terry Lavin

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Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #96 on: June 22, 2010, 08:43:44 AM »
My bad, thanks Mark.  He did predict McDowell, which some may have put off to "boosterism", but it sure looks prescient now!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Garland Bayley

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Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #97 on: June 22, 2010, 01:00:51 PM »

4. Saying he is European makes it unlikely is kind of silly. There was a time when there were lots of European winners and there such a time will come again. Given this drought happened during a time when the Ryder Cup was going most often to Europe, it is clear that it would be highly likely to have a European winner.


Garland:
A European-based/born player hadn't won the US Open in 40 years. This, despite Europe since 1970 unquestionably developing better players -- Seve, Langer, Faldo, Monty, Harrington, Olazabal -- than it did prior to 1970. You might argue that -- well, the odds are diminishing, then, that this 40-year winless streak would continue (especially since Euro continues to develop quality players along the likes of McElroy, Donald, et al.). I'd argue it's fair, in the face of a 40-year winless streak, to call a victory by a European player unlikely.

Do the words "independent trials" mean anything to you. This 40-year winless nonsense is just something journalists bandy about to get attention. It has no meaning in real life
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David_Tepper

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Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #98 on: June 22, 2010, 01:01:52 PM »
McDowell's win is a big boost for cardigan sweaters! ;)

Garland Bayley

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Re: The US Open Identifies Another Unlikely Winner
« Reply #99 on: June 22, 2010, 01:11:46 PM »
...Bottom line, if he isn't a likely winner (step up all those who feel McD was)...

I have always felt the emphasis on previous winners being favored in majors (except the Masters, where they are given an easy run) is misplaced. I didn't actually do a count until yesterday where I determined that more than half the time it's a first time winner. Therefore, I was anticipating a first time winner and G Mac was on my list.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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