[Phil McDade]

It's too bad that BB has been impacted by poor weather in '02 & '09 but both events there were carried out well inspite of the incessant raindrops.

You're right, Matt -- it's always nice to see the US Open leader, desperately holding on to a one-stroke lead, take the bold and risky play of teeing off with a 6-iron, to assure his 9-iron approach would hold the green, on the last hole of the tourney. Good design, there -- along with a great set-up...

Phil,
Why bust Bethpage for the setup of 18-it's 420 yards long.
It's not like it's Olympic's #18

Jeff:

Matt's been dissing PBeach all week long (or at least until Tiger got hot), suggesting strongly those doing well were the beneficiaries of lucky bounces. He's devoted a full thread to his argument the greens at Pebble ought to be completely redone, because they suffer from a fact of agronomy common on the West Coast during the summer.

My argument is that all Open courses, that I've seen, suffer from some sort of weakness. For Matt and Pebble, it's the arbirtary nature of the course and poor greens. For me, at Bethpage Black, it's a woefully poor finishing hole, that provides little challenge and little ability to play in a varied way, along with an overall emphasis on length on the 17 holes prior.

Really good Open courses -- Pebble, Oakmont, Shinnecock -- feature closing holes that provide some level of challenge, uncertainty or variation on how they can be played. BBlack is a 6-iron/9-iron -- a lame finish.

What weaknesses do Oakmont, Shinnecock Hills and Pinehurst #2 have? I'm really interested to hear this.

John:

From what I've seen, Oakmont and Shinnecock are the two Open sites with the least deficiencies -- and those deficiencies, from what I've seen, are quite minor. If I ranked them as US Open sites, they'd be choice 1 and 1A, with little to differentiate them as far as their worthiness. At Oakmont, I think the two church-pew bunkers are slightly gimmicky, although unique to the course, and around for a long time, so changing them or getting rid of them under a USGA set-up would be dumb, in my view. I think hitting a ball in them leads to arbitrary lies and outcomes, which I think the US Open should try as much to avoid. It seems in certain weather conditions, it can be susceptible to a really low round. These are minor quibbles -- denuded of trees, it ought to be permanently in the rota of Open choices.

Shinnecock can get overly dry -- as evidenced by the last Open played there, but that from all indications that was more of a USGA decision than the course's deficiency (although I'd argue the two go hand-in-hand). It has a couple of quite severe holes (the 11th being one, I think) that under USGA set-ups can get close to goofy (the way 14 and 17 played at Pebble this year). But, again, a very minor quibble. I'd play the Open at Shinnecock five times to BBlack's one -- I think it's a truly superior course.

Pinehurst strikes me as good, but not great, with its chief challenge being the teacup greens. I think it's challenges are repetitive in nature, and mainly around the greens, not varied from tee to green like they are at Oakmont and Shinnecock.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

You must have missed the wrap-up birdie that Floyd had on the 16th during the final round.

The par-5 16th was the toughest par-5 in recent memory -- only this year's version of the 14th at PB topped it.

Jon:

Let me help your faulty memory banks -- check out the leader board heading into the final round for the '86 event. No less than eight ( people -- household names almost all of them -- were battling for the title.

It was stellar.

Norman blew the event but Floyd's win was an epic display given the conditions.

Let me also point out the inclusion of SH was a great moment for the USGA in showing that other sites -- not just private membership oriented and active volunteers could pull it off. A clear turning point happened and SH has demonstrated that it is second none as the premier location for the game's national championship here in the USA in my mind.

Forgive me -- but you have a big mouth in stating such comments as "idiotic." Open the golf textbooks and get caught up -- please.

[Matt_Ward]

Shivas:

You're right under the tagline of "most" people -- they would not have heard about SH. Maybe they should have cracked open a book or two.

Unfortunately -- excuse me -- I should say fortunately -- there are people with expertise who have heard about SH and thanks to a number of them -- Frank Hannigan being one of them -- SH was brought into the view of many people.

Shivas, let me help clear your ignorance -- the situation benefited both parties. SH didn't need a US Open to be still deemed great. It was already there -- the USGA gained from adding a site on eastern LI where golf has its deep roots here in the States. The player reactions and ditto those of golfers everywhere -- including the ones you mentioned confirmed that.

I'd hope the same smart people will see to it that it is returned to the near future in hosting. We shall see ...

[Jon Wiggett]

John:

You must have missed the wrap-up birdie that Floyd had on the 16th during the final round.

The par-5 16th was the toughest par-5 in recent memory -- only this year's version of the 14th at PB topped it.

Jon:

Let me help your faulty memory banks -- check out the leader board heading into the final round for the '86 event. No less than eight ( people -- household names almost all of them -- were battling for the title.

It was stellar.

Norman blew the event but Floyd's win was an epic display given the conditions.

Let me also point out the inclusion of SH was a great moment for the USGA in showing that other sites -- not just private membership oriented and active volunteers could pull it off. A clear turning point happened and SH has demonstrated that it is second none as the premier location for the game's national championship here in the USA in my mind.

Forgive me -- but you have a big mouth in stating such comments as "idiotic." Open the golf textbooks and get caught up -- please.

Matt,

My memory banks are just fine but suggesting that they are not just because I do not agree with you says alot about you and the type of person that you are.

Yes, it might have been a good championship but trying to say it is the Shinnecock 86' is the greatest championship of all times is just deluded. It was wonderful to see Floydd win and the course was like a breath of fresh air and brought some welcome variety.

No less than eight ( people -- household names almost all of them -- were battling for the title. Wow Matt 8, a whole 8 players and almost all of them household names that is outstanding. I bet that is the only one ever with 8 players battling away and that almost all of them where household names. Oh no wait this appears to have happened many times before and after.

Oh but hang on Matt it must be your second point. Yes, thats it. Of course.

Norman blew the event but Floyd's win was an epic display given the conditions

Yes, thats it Norman throwing the event and being beaten by a great round by another player. Bet that has never happened. Yes, thats it.... oh wait. Norman led all 4 majors going into the last round that year (dicky memory) and blew 3 of them but surely this can't be, yes it is I seem to remember Jacks final round at the Masters wasn't to shabby. Are you going to tell JN his round just wasn't quite good enough or me? duuuhhh!!!

Oh, no wait Matt. I must really apologise. I lay myself down before you and beg your forgiveness. How could I have missed it, it was there all the time.

It is your comment to John!!!!!!!

the wrap-up birdie that Floyd had on the 16th during the final round

Thats it. I bet no player has ever made a birdie on a really tough hole during the closing fews holes of a final round. My God, it would take a chip in birdie from the rough or an up an down from the 18th fairway bunkers using 7 iron. No not enough, it would need an eagle or maybe no this is it. To top Floyds birdie some guy would have to hole a fairway wood for an albatross 2 on a par five and that sure as hell isn't ever going to happen.

Thank god I have managed to see you were right all along.

Matt, please please please answer my second question about your statement 'the absence of SH would be a devestating loss to golf and the US Open'. Why would it? I can't wait to hear your words of wisdom and be inspired.


Yours in anticipation,

Jon

Joy Joy Joy 

[Jim Tang]

Man, the love within this thread is overwhelming.

For the USGA, I think a return to Pebble has a lot to do with the fact they can put the tournament on in prime time for the east coast and central states.  That's big money and big ratings. 

[Matt_Ward]

Shivas:

The USGA and golf in general benefited as well from SH hosting the '86 event. The USGA moved away exclusively from clubs that had a built-in membership base to depend upon. In addition, the traditional parksland tree-lined fairways that so many Opens had been played on -- was no longer the only mechanism to determine our national champion. Forgive the word ignorance - but if you think the club benefited alone I believe you are mistaken. Of course, that would be a first for you -- right.

Jon:

You're the guy who called me ignorant, arrogant and idiotic. I always appreciate people who start down the name calling route.

People who do such things usually are projecting themselves.

In regards to the kind of person I am -- you don't know me from squat. I never went in the gutter with the pathetic name calling show. Having differences of opinion is fair game here -- but dropping the kindergarten name calling show isn't.

I answered your call for what made SH in '86 so special. A number of factors -- several of which I mentioned in great detail came to life in that special moment. Yes, Floyd's win was special -- so were the competitors he faced down that last final round.

Floyd battled with one of the finest back nine displays of shotmaking given the wind velocity that took place that last round.

By the way Jon -- check out the stats for the par-5 16th on SH in '86 -- only the results from the par-5 14th at PB this year top it. For someone to birdie the hole in the final round really separated Floyd from all the others that day.

SH is located in the eastern area of LI -- golf really came to life in this special place. Having the US Open played there every ten years is what needs to happen. No doubt the hosting of such an event benefits both parties -- the USGA and the club. But the game itself is elevated higher when people can see what made that special piece of property so special many years after Flyyn did his magic there. Jon, don't know if it will help, but read Jonhhny Miller's account of why PB and SH are so special. Golf World ran the piece prior to the '04 Open aat SH.

[Jon Wiggett]

Matt,

thank you so much for answering the questions and clearing that up I was so confused but it is all clearer now. Oh, no wait a moment you haven't answered any of them and that is the problem. You start by making what appear to be outlandish and wild statements.  Then when some one requests that you substantiate your claims you seem incapable/unable to do it and therefore try to stiffle open discussion by trying to belittle the other person.

Fact: You claim that the 1986 US at SH is the ultimate championship of all time.
Fact: You stated it would be a desaster for golf if the US wasn't held at SH
Fact: You have been unable to back up the first statement beyond Floyds birdie at 16 which was outstanding but for most people does not make it the best championship ever based on that one player on that one hole.
Fact: You have until now refused to answer the desaster issue undoubtably because you can't though an attempt would have been nice

This did however catch my attention

You're the guy who called me ignorant, arrogant and idiotic. I always appreciate people who start down the name calling route.

People who do such things usually are projecting themselves.


Look, I am sorry if I upset you on the other thread and I apologise if this is the case. I will try to be a little more sensative in future when dealing with you.

I would point out on this thread I haven't called you anything and it is a bit suprising that you decided to wait until now to bring something from another thread up here. One can only wonder why.

Jon

p.s.

your quote SH is located in the eastern area of LI -- golf really came to life in this special place. got me thinking. Are you claiming that the eastern area of LI is the true birth place of golf? no wait lets not go there.....

[Matt_Ward]

Jon:

You can make any point you want -- but the name calling stuff is juvenile. Understand that and you can have a dialogue with most people -- including me.  Also, where you said it is unimporant -- just leave the name calling on the sidelines.
If you're going to claim I said something be sure to get it right.

I said the '86 US Open at SH was one of the most significant US Opens of all time. It provided a connection to the past that for too many years was ignored. Getting SH into the rota was loved by a great many people -- the players most especially. The championship itself also had high drama on a range of fronts (check out the names who contended the last day) -- several of which I have already stated time and again.

I also said the eastern area of LI is the birthplace of golf's greatest courses when the game started here in the USA. NGLA through Macdonald is a testament to the man's brilliance. SH is the personification of William Flynn's great style in creating a course that provides for the ultimate mixture of holes.

I stand by my opinion -- losing SH would be a disaster for the US Open because of what SH has provided to the event. Jon, do yourself a huge favor -- find the Jonhnny Miller I spoke to you about and read it -- it's in Golf World prior to the '04 event.

The 16th at SH was one of the toughest par-5 holes in the last 24 years of the US Open -- opnly this year's 14th version at PB has risen above it -- Floyd played it smartly and with it claimed the title. Others were not as fortunate. Years later in '95 Lefty fell victim to the hole otherwise he would have won the Open then.

[Jim Hoak]

I have been concerned that maybe SH really didn't want another Open after what they perceived as a disaster to their course the last time around.  But I understand that they are now in serious talks with the USGA.  I assume--and hope--it is for 2018.
I still wish someone with more knowledge than the rumors I am picking up would comment here.

[Jason McNamara]

Jon, it's all about how you couch your comments.  Some examples:

      "One final thing to help your blindness"
      "Shivas, let me help clear your ignorance"
      "Let me help your faulty memory banks"

As long as you offer to "help," apparently you can say anything you want.  (It will also make you feel better about yourself - after all, you're deigning to help [sic] the blind/ignorant/amnesiac.)


Here's why losing Shinnecock would not be a disaster.  The US Open hasn't been to TCC for 20 years, Rivera for 60, Myopia Hunt and Chicago for 100.  It's never been held at NGLA, PV, or Shoreacres.  And despite this, it hasn't been a disaster.  Would losing Shinnecock be somewhat disappointing?  Sure, for a few people.  But not a disaster.  

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

I take issue when people call me an idiot. Maybe you don't.

Shinnecock Hills is beyond the courses you mentioned -- Myopia would not be possible -- it's the American equivalent of Prestwick -- short and not a doable product tied to modern golf and the hosting of a major -- Chicago is in the same vein as is Shoreacres.. NGLA isn't strong enough to test the world's best players and with SH right next door no need to change it to do just that.

TCC had a most difficult time with The Ryder Cup Matches and although was approached for the 100th anniversary of Oimet's historic win in 1913 -- decided otherwise because of logistics and all the issues tied to crowd control and local area streets being tied up for the event.

PV cannot host the US Open because of crowd issues and the resulting logisitics that would impact the course.

Riviera has had issues with the greens and the taste after the PGA Championship played a few years back was not exactly thrilling in terms of the turf issues tied to the putting surfaces. A SoCal location is clearly sought -- obviously TP filled that bill for the moment. It's possible Riviera could be used - or if matters can be sorted out LACC / North.

Here's what you missed Jason -- the move in '86 was a long time coming -- there were doubters that it could be done and until the event concluded few thought it could work. Having an eastern LI location for our national championsip is something that needs to be included for a whole slew of reasons -- most notably it's where golf blossomed when coming across the pond. It would be a tremendous loss GIVEN all that we now know on what SH provides. To minimize it with a "somewhat disappointing" is not elevating all of the elements the course brings to the table.

That same belief extends to another course that is returning to the fold -- Merion in 2013. The issue with Merion is whether or not it can handle all of the elements tied to a modern 21st century major. SH has proven that.

[Adam Clayman]

Shinnecock was a great course when Pavin won, less so when Goosen did.

Martin, Would you care to elaborate on why you feel the golf course was less so when Goosen won?

[Jason McNamara]

I take issue when people call me an idiot. Maybe you don't.

So it's not OK to call someone ignorant, but it's OK to tell someone you'll help them get over their ignorance? 
Just trying to get a handle on how you rationalize everything.

Having an eastern LI location for our national championsip is something that needs to be included for a whole slew of reasons -- most notably it's where golf blossomed when coming across the pond.

What's the rationale for this newer argument singling out "eastern L.I." as the location where golf blossomed?  Is it not also Westchester and Nassau as well?  Sure Suffolk County has its great golf courses, but Westchester is positively thick with them (again, as is Nassau County).  After all, blossoming typically implies quantity -and- quality, doesn't it?

Winged Foot had a better final leaderboard than Shinnecock, didn't it?  And rather than one v. one, there were several competitors  in the mix in 2006.  So I'd say have the '18 Open at WF, except I don't know if they want it, and therefore I'm not going to spout off about it without having more information.  (If having the '18 Open at SH is not that important to the members there, it certainly won't be to me.)

[Matt explains why various clubs don't host majors.]

My point was that no matter what the reason a great course can't/won't host, the US Open marches on.  The Open will never go to Bandon, Seminole, or Sand Hills.  (And no, you don't need to explain why.)  Again, disappointing.  But I'll get over it. 

Anyone who said in the 1960's that it would be a disaster if the Open never returned to Riviera has been proved wrong, hasn't he?  Was it a disaster that the USGA never had the Open at Shoreacres in the first half of last century?  (That course wasn't any shorter than Merion at the time.)

Basically Matt, I think you're overreacting.

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

Ignorance is not an insult -- I was told that by Jon himself. In regards to helping him I mentioned that in a gracious way because I don't know what his experiences / knowledge of the matter at-hand might be. People have helped me on this site with my own ignorance and I don't consider that rude -- I consider that a major help.

Jason, eastern Long Island is where so much of what later developed in American golf took off. Macdonald's NGLA really elevated golf design in this country to a place it had never seen. SH is also one of the five (5) founding members of the USGA and the insertion of the club in '86 marked a major turning point in my mind in how the USGA could expand the envelope for the US Open. The '95 and '04 events were also a plus -- even though the '04 event was marred by an insistence of the USGA to push the envelope beyond where the course should have been. Interesting sidenote -- up to mid-day Saturday of the '04 event the course was working just fine -- the cumulative nature of the actions are what pushed matters beyond what was appropriate for the final day.

Jason, I didn't "spout off" about anything -- save to say that the loss of SH from the US Open rotation would be a major loss for the event and to golf in general. I don't know if you have played the course -- but if you have not -- then read Doak's comments in CG about it. Especially the last sentence -- the course belongs in the rota with the likes of PB, Oakmont and now with Merion in 2013.

Jason, you are the one who inserted the names of other clubs that have never -- or in recent times -- would not want to host a US Open. I am hoping SH and the USGA will see all the gains that were made and minimize the negative dimensions that came from the '04 event. The architecture of the course, the setting it provides and the exciting golf it has produced all speak to its greatness.

Riviera has had issues tied to the greens themselves and the sparse turnout for the PGA in August when it hosted the event made many people unsure of what the course would be able to do with a US Open. The LA market is no doubt something the USGA is interested in given what was done at TP. If the greens can be secured and the SoCal area rallies around it then the event has a good shot in returning. Keep in mind, folks like The Century Club at TP played a very active role in what they did to promote TP and to get the fan base in and around the course excited.

If you think Shoreacres was worthy of an Open back in the early part of the century -- God bless you. I think other layouts in the Chicago area should have hosted it more than they did -- see Skokie as one quick example. Another thing -- Shoreacres cannot remotely sniff the greatness of what lies at Merion / East.

I am not "overreacting" -- I am simply expressing my opinion that SH is no less the equivalent of places like PB, Oakmont and now in 2013 w Merion. Read the Johnny Miller column in Golf World prior to the '04 event there and see what he sayd. Miller's comments are spot on -- losing SH would be a major loss -- having it return in 2018 would be most welcomed and appreciated by a great many people.

[Jon Wiggett]

Matt,

thanks for the answer which I think says alot about you. I made an apology in the open as I felt it was the right thing to do as what I had said ,though on another thread, was in public. I did hope you might have acknowledged/accepted it instead of in the manner that you did.

As to your reply let me help your memory and point out the following anomalies in your reply:

Jon:

You can make any point you want -- but the name calling stuff is juvenile. Understand that and you can have a dialogue with most people -- including me.  Also, where you said it is unimporant -- just leave the name calling on the sidelines.
If you're going to claim I said something be sure to get it right.

I said the '86 US Open at SH was one of the most significant US Opens of all time.  It provided a connection to the past that for too many years was ignored. Getting SH into the rota was loved by a great many people -- the players most especially. The championship itself also had high drama on a range of fronts (check out the names who contended the last day) -- several of which I have already stated time and again.

No Matt, in the quote we were talking about you did not use significant but rather ultimate

I also said the eastern area of LI is the birthplace of golf's greatest courses when the game started here in the USA.  NGLA through Macdonald is a testament to the man's brilliance. SH is the personification of William Flynn's great style in creating a course that provides for the ultimate mixture of holes.

Again this is not quite what you wrote in the reply that I quoted earlier is it. There you said "SH is located in the eastern area of LI -- golf really came to life in this special place" nothing about golf's greatest golf courses

I stand by my opinion -- losing SH would be a disaster for the US Open because of what SH has provided to the event Jon, do yourself a huge favor -- find the Jonhnny Miller I spoke to you about and read it -- it's in Golf World prior to the '04 event.

.Again Matt, this is not what you said in the reply that I quoted where you said "the absence of SH would be a devestating loss to golf and the US Open."


The 16th at SH was one of the toughest par-5 holes in the last 24 years of the US Open -- opnly this year's 14th version at PB has risen above it -- Floyd played it smartly and with it claimed the title. Others were not as fortunate. Years later in '95 Lefty fell victim to the hole otherwise he would have won the Open then.

Matt,

a futher quote from you above was If you're going to claim I said something be sure to get it right so in order that it is clear what you are saying.

I can accept that you see Floyds birdie at 16 as one of the reasons that '86 was so special to you but:

Why would the absence of SH be a devestating loss to golf and the US Open? What would be the consequences for golf and the US Open of SH not being used?

and can you clarrify "SH is located in the eastern area of LI -- golf really came to life in this special place" as it can be read in so many ways. Is it that you are saying that this area has many of the worlds finest golf courses or something else?

I will read the Johnny Miller article as I am sure it will be an interesting read,

Jon

[Jason McNamara]

Miller's comments are spot on -- losing SH would be a major loss -- having it return in 2018 would be most welcomed and appreciated by a great many people.

As long as you understand those are two different things, no problem.  Please, no conflation.

Let's say Bethpage gets 2018 and WF gets 2020.  Is that a disaster?

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

I like BB and WF/W -- but Shinnecock is the first among equals. Frankly, I think BB is just too one dimensional -- too much emphasis on length and even more length. Doak is right -- great courses should have at least one great short par-4 -- I don't see any at BB. Not to say it's not a strong course but lacking in the extra elements that SH provides.

WF/W is a gem of a Tillie layout -- arguably, among the 4-5 best parksland courses in the USA that I personally played.  But there are enough other parksland layouts that host a US Open -- going to the end of eastern LI makes for a glorious settign and frankly it's a bit removed from the immediate NYC area which adds a good bit more to the equation.

Jon:

I appreciate the apology but just realize that I don't stay on GCA forever -- so please realize that.

I stand by what I said about the '86 US Open at Shinnecock -- was a tremendous move by the USGA and club.
Jon, time is short for me now -- but eastern LI is a special locale. Don't know if you evere been there but the terrain, nature of the golf itself and what it means to how American golf blossomed here is quite clear to most people. As a founding member of the USGA -- SH is the only course among that grouping that can host a US Open. Returning there on a peridic basis -- say every ten years -- is the way to go in my mind. When you read what Johnyy Miller said in the Golf World article you will hiopefully have a different tune on this subject.

[Jason McNamara]

Jason:

I like BB and WF/W -- but Shinnecock is the first among equals. Frankly, I think BB is just too one dimensional -- too much emphasis on length and even more length. Doak is right -- great courses should have at least one great short par-4 -- I don't see any at BB. Not to say it's not a strong course but lacking in the extra elements that SH provides.

WF/W is a gem of a Tillie layout -- arguably, among the 4-5 best parksland courses in the USA that I personally played.  But there are enough other parksland layouts that host a US Open -- going to the end of eastern LI makes for a glorious settign and frankly it's a bit removed from the immediate NYC area which adds a good bit more to the equation.

Matt, that is a great answer - to someone else's question.  You're not tapdancing, are you?

> Let's say Bethpage gets 2018 and WF gets 2020.  Is that a disaster?

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

I didn't tapdance at all.

I wrote what I believe - leaving SH on the sidelines is a mistake.

Simple as that -- got it now.

I have nothing against BB (save for the lame closing hole) and WF/W. They are both strong courses but neither of them is in the league with Shinnecock -- although WF/W is not too far behind.

[Jason McNamara]

I wrote what I believe - leaving SH on the sidelines is a mistake.

Simple as that -- got it now.

I thought my question was already simple:
> Let's say Bethpage gets 2018 and WF gets 2020.  Is that a disaster?

(A simple yes or no would have sufficed.)

So you've softened your position from a "disaster" to a "mistake."  See why I initially thought you were overreacting?

Anyway, I've made my point.  As long as you skip the "cut and run" dig, you can add what you like and finish this up.

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

Losing SH would be a devestating situation and a major blunder on the USGA's part. Going to the course in 1986 was one of the smartest decision the association ever made. Not going back to it would be a collosal error.

No doubt the club has to issue an invitation -- but the USGA can do all it can to woe the club in that direction if it's so inclined.

As much as I like the idea in going to public oriented courses for the US Open -- I don't want to see them be the only game in town. That's why one has an Oakmont, Merion, PB and SH !

Thanks ...

[Steve Burrows]

There are literally tens of thousands of golf courses in America, though perhaps 50 or so have hosted the US Open, and at one time, each of these was an experiment of whether it had the chops to be worthy of the honor.  Yet we are somehow bound to a heritge that, like all heritage, is only a product of human creation (a subject that is controversial in a number of other social and political contexts).  So, "losing" Shinnecock, for example, would do absolutely no harm--it would not materially lessen the relevance of the championship--but instead would give another potentially deserving venue an opportunity to create a history of their own. 

Moreover, I believe that limiting the choices of venues to a steady diet of Oakmont, Merion, Winged Foot,, etc. (as Matt Ward suggests) would be a big mistake, inviting the possibility of stagnating the championship (and yes, I think the British Open could use a similar change), or, at the least, halting the chance for future "great"' courses to become great.  We need more Open venues, not fewer.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon:

I appreciate the apology but just realize that I don't stay on GCA forever -- so please realize that.

I stand by what I said about the '86 US Open at Shinnecock -- was a tremendous move by the USGA and club.
Jon, time is short for me now -- but eastern LI is a special locale. Don't know if you evere been there but the terrain, nature of the golf itself and what it means to how American golf blossomed here is quite clear to most people. As a founding member of the USGA -- SH is the only course among that grouping that can host a US Open. Returning there on a peridic basis -- say every ten years -- is the way to go in my mind. When you read what Johnyy Miller said in the Golf World article you will hiopefully have a different tune on this subject.

Hi Matt,

I also don't have that much time but.....

rebuke, admit, qualify look em up buddy

Jon

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

We have received other sites for the US Open recently -- did you not see the addition of BB, Chambers Bay and Erin Hills as three new ones. Having a bit of tradition (Oakmont, Merion, SH and PB) as part of the core grouping -- along with a throwing in of WF/W and others from time to time is makes the US Open special.

Tell me how SH is in anyway deifcient or lacking -- or that you can get anything better -- save for the likes of a Oakmont and I'll concede for the sake of argument a place like PB.

The championship will not stagnate but to link all US Open venues with a publi course connection will only eliminate a range of courses that still should be used. 

Steve if you serious believe that losing SH would cause "no harm" then either you have never been to SH -- for an Open or personally played the course or you really don't understand the heft that a place like SH provides. Under your argument a place like PB and even Oakmont would not be a loss either.

I can say from the other side that the R&A could use some experimentation because their rota is quite limiting -- TOC gets an event every five or so years and many people don't see that as overkill. The USGA has a bigger area of territory to cover and other logistical issues to consider -- leaving SH out is also leaving out eastern LI and it's tie and history to the game is something that I believe should be prserved -- a periodic US Open at SH (every ten or so years) does that.

[jkinney]

Shinnecock Hills Golf Club is the highest ranked course on the U.S. Open rota. It is also a private club with a small membership. After 3 Opens in 18 years, the last of which left a somewhat bad taste in members' mouths after USGA fumbling on Sunday, a break from the every-9-year-rota was a good move. This interlude will not be permanent.

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