[Jon Wiggett]

Jon:

SH not important as PB.

No it is plainly not

Jon -- read TD's comments on SH -- Read the last sentence slowly and allow it to permeate your thought process.

TD saysThe eastern LI area is "iconic" to American golf the area is iconic and SH is that rightful ambassador

John:

I could give a rats ass about what the average Joe and Jane thinks.

no not unless it fits in with your point of view

PB benefits beyond its location -- the time zone situation will allow for higher ratings because of the later tee times and how the eastern time zone will be able to watch golf even as last as 10 PM Sunday. For the PB and USGA that means mega $$$$.

Also a good argument as to why PB is on the rota so often

Matt,

if SH is as essential to the US Open as you claim then how come it in so many years it has not been used very much? Don't get me wrong I think it should be used on a very regular basis but don't find your art of argument at all convincing.

Jon

[John Moore II]

Jon:

SH not important as PB.

No it is plainly not

Jon -- read TD's comments on SH -- Read the last sentence slowly and allow it to permeate your thought process.

TD saysThe eastern LI area is "iconic" to American golf the area is iconic and SH is that rightful ambassador

John:

I could give a rats ass about what the average Joe and Jane thinks.

no not unless it fits in with your point of view

PB benefits beyond its location -- the time zone situation will allow for higher ratings because of the later tee times and how the eastern time zone will be able to watch golf even as last as 10 PM Sunday. For the PB and USGA that means mega $$$$.

Also a good argument as to why PB is on the rota so often

Matt,

if SH is as essential to the US Open as you claim then how come it in so many years it has not been used very much? Don't get me wrong I think it should be used on a very regular basis but don't find your art of argument at all convincing.

Jon

Seems to me the Open got along just fine for 90 years without Shinnecock, but what do I know.

I mean, lets see if we can figure out the normal rotation for US Open sites: Pebble Beach, Oakmont, Pinehurst (for the near future anyway), and Bethpage seem to be the ones on a 'schedule,' then Olympic, Congressional, and (it would seem, possibly) Shinnecock Hills added in regularly. The rest are filled by 'once-every-20-years' courses or one-and-done sites. But beyond that, who knows.

[Jason McNamara]

So Matt, what you're saying is that SH should get the Open, even though we don't know whether they want it.  OK.

[Jon Wiggett]

So Matt, what you're saying is that SH should get the Open, even though we don't know whether they want it.  OK.

I could give a rats ass about what the average Joe and Jane thinks. We are talking about the US Open here -- not the club member guest and the like.

hmmm

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

If SH doesn't want it -- i have not heard a word that says anything like it. Rather the question is whether the USGA is doing all it can to get the course back into the rotation.

Jon:

Let me help you out -- OK.

Read Doak's take on SH versus PB in CG.

Especially the last line Doak writes on what makes SH so special.

Jon, if you know anything about golf history -- the USGA prior to '86 was only going to use clubs with existing membership that could handle all the needed logistics. Let me point out that PB was also forgotten for a whole host of other reasons before 1972.

To the credit of the USGA and Shinncock itself -- they proved would get be done when the will is present.

John:

If you wish to worry about 'normal" golfers think -- then by all means champion their cause.

I'm more concerned with those who make the final decisions. SH is the finest golf course I have ever played. The average person doesn't understand the traditions of golf and what makes the US Open and the courses that host it special.

Places like SH, Oakmont and Merion / East speak to that without question. Congressional doesn't. Ditto the Chicago courses that have been used previously. I even think Olympic is rather limited and can't sniff what SH provides.

John -- read Doak's final sentence in CG about SH. That says it all.

I won't quibble with you in terms of who has won at PB -- but the list at SH is not chump change by any means.

Read Johnny Miller's take on both PB and SH in golf world -- believe it was in the '04 period just before the open returned to eastern li.

lLike I said -- when you talk about iconic golf locations -- eastern LI belongs at the top of the heap and SH leads that parade. Just because the average Joe and Jane may not know about SH means nothing to me. If it does for you -- so be it.

[Ronald Montesano]

The dude in The Hangover, and I quote, says "it's funny because he's fat."  I'd like to amend that to "It's funny because he's Matt Ward."  Thank you, Matt, for your vitriol; it keeps this discussion group so damned interesting.

If you don't care what average people think, why do you care so much about what Doak thinks...what makes his opinion matter more, especially from a book he penned two decades ago?

I think that Pebbly Beachy will be peachy in 201918 (holes).  It's a fine selection for a course.  Do you have inside info on 2018?  Despite the blather of the SD press, I can't imagine the USGA going back to Torrey Pines and staying away from the metro NY area for over a decade.  Let's revisit...

2011-Congressional
2012-Olympic
2013-Merion
2014-Pinehurst
2015-Chambers
2016-Oakmont
2017-Erin
2018-SHINY
2019-Pebbly

If they went anywhere other than metro NYC in 2018, I'd be stunned.  Bethpage is too much of a risk during monsoon season, as it drains so poorly.  Winged Foot could be in the running, but my guess is that resolution of issues with Sinny City Hills will bring about an announcement on the 2018 championship.

Perhaps we could call Pebble Beach "identifiable" to the majority of golfers, while Shinnecock would be so to a smaller percentage.

[Tim_Cronin]

Matt,
    Any inside info on whether or not the smallish Shinnecock membership wants it, doesn't want it, doesn't care, or would only take it if the sprinklers on the seventh green are never turned off?
    The USGA would go back in a half-heartbeat, for two reasons. First, it started the trend toward linksy courses for the Open, and, it was the first Open the USGA ran itself, and discovered just how much money could be made.
    It's the membership that would decide. If they don't want it, fine. Then Shinnecock goes back to being a great course that doesn't host the Open. We've got plenty of those.

[Bill Brightly]

Shinny is the obvious choice, but if that falls through, what about Brookline?

[Jason McNamara]

Matt, one year ago:
"I was always hoping Shinnecock Hills would again return to the rota but I hear from some knowledgeable types that it may be quite some time -- not until after 2020 before the club decides to give it another shot."
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39928.0/

Matt today:
"If SH doesn't want it -- i have not heard a word that says anything like it."

Well, clearly you had heard something like that.  Anyway, has something changed in the last year?

[Jon Wiggett]

Jason:

Jon:

Let me help you out -- OK.

Read Doak's take on SH versus PB in CG.

Especially the last line Doak writes on what makes SH so special.

But we were discussing if SH was seen as iconic and TD clearly sates that the area is but does not say that SH is

Jon, if you know anything about golf history -- the USGA prior to '86 was only going to use clubs with existing membership that could handle all the needed logistics. Let me point out that PB was also forgotten for a whole host of other reasons before 1972.

Matt, it is poor form to say either you agree with me or you do not know anything about the subject. It gives your argument less weight which is a shame because it is a valid one. I agree with the vast majority of what you say but not all of it. However, you stance seems to be that of either you accept 100% of all Matt says or your an idiot. It is condescending and could be misconstrued as an inability to accept others view points. The status of a golf course within the golfing world does depend on what Joe Bloggs thinks and in this case far, far more people if asked to name an iconic US golf course would name PB than SH

What I would point out to you is if you look at where the US Open has been held from 1986 onwards SH has had it as many times as PB. If it gets it back in 2018, which I hope it does then it will have held it more times than PB in the same time span. What is wrong with that?

To the credit of the USGA and Shinncock itself -- they proved would get be done when the will is present.

Yes, it is. What I would also like to ask is what do you find so wrong with the idea that the USGA making more money at PB and this been used as a reason for it been used more frequently (which is not the case) than SH. As far as I am aware, one of but by no means the only reasons that the R&A use TOC so frequently is that it generates the most revenue for them. This in turn allows them to spend more money on developing the game of golf all around the globe

Jon

[Martin Toal]

When I read the first few posts, I thought the SH Matt was referring to as the equal (?superior) of PB was Southern Hills. What an odd choice, I thought.

Shinnecock is a much better choice, to be sure.

As a foreigner watching the US Open from afar, I think Pebble is a very attractive venue, partly because it is more familiar with the Bill Murray Pro-Am each year, but also because of the memorable holes along the ocean.

Shinnecock was a great course when Pavin won, less so when Goosen did. Perhaps the compromise would be that whenever the USGA thinks Torrey Pines, they choose Shinnecock instead.

[Phil McDade]

Matt, one year ago:
"I was always hoping Shinnecock Hills would again return to the rota but I hear from some knowledgeable types that it may be quite some time -- not until after 2020 before the club decides to give it another shot."
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39928.0/

Matt today:
"If SH doesn't want it -- i have not heard a word that says anything like it."

Well, clearly you had heard something like that.  Anyway, has something changed in the last year?

Jason:

Surely you're not expecting Matt to be consistent, or even logical, in his arguments. That's asking a bit much....

[Mac Plumart]

These abbreviations are killing me...

for quite awhile on this thread I thought we were talking Sand Hills when SH was used.

Now that would be cool!  Forget Shinnecock, Sand Hills baby!!

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

I have not polled all the members at SH and you are 100% correct -- if the bulk of them don't want it then it won't happen. However, if the matter is tied to the USGA doing a bit more effort to convince the club then it needs to do that. Losing SH, after waiting so many years for it to be resurrected, would be a huge loss to the event itself.

Eastern LI is a special place -- ask anyone who has ever been to the locale and when the US Open is played at such a special place like Shinnecock -- it's no less than what you get with PB, or Oakmont and hopefully what Merion will provide for in 2013.

Bill:

From what I understand -- TCC was asked to be in the slot for the 100th anniversary of Ouimet's victory -- but opted not to. Getting a smaller USGA event would work better because of all the logistical elements tied to the place. Getting to and from TCC is an absolute horror -- it makes getting into Merion look like a super highway was next to the course.

Jason:

What I said then is true -- I'm hopeful that smarter minds can do better than that. If I'm proven wrong with SH being selected for 2018 I'll be the first to say so and say it happily. Thus far, I am not so optimistic but who knows -- golf balls, like course selections, can bounce in funny ways.

Ron:

I care what Tom Doak thinks because he is both extremely intelligent and understands design far more than I and many others do. The average golfer for the most part is more concerned with other elements that are either rudimentary or just tied to their senses with little depth beyond that. I don't agree with all that Tom D says but I respect his take on things because of a lifetime commitment to what golf design can and should be about.

Ron, the eastern LI area is central to the root beginnings of golf in the USA -- when the USGA first decided (thanks to a number of people including if I recall correctly Frank Hannigan) that Shinnecock would be returned to the championship stage there's little doubt that few people -- save for those who know golf courses -- had ever heard of it. I hope that 2018 permits that return -- of all the NY-area courses SH is the first among equals. It's too bad that BB has been impacted by poor weather in '02 & '09 but both events there were carried out well inspite of the incessant raindrops.

Winged Foot / West is also a fine choice for a location closer to NYC.

I'm happy that Oakmont and PB are already scheduled -- getting SH back into the rota for a 5th time would be ideal to me and others like me who see Shinnecock as the quintessential US Open layout for what it provides and where it is located.

[Phil McDade]

It's too bad that BB has been impacted by poor weather in '02 & '09 but both events there were carried out well inspite of the incessant raindrops.

You're right, Matt -- it's always nice to see the US Open leader, desperately holding on to a one-stroke lead, take the bold and risky play of teeing off with a 6-iron, to assure his 9-iron approach would hold the green, on the last hole of the tourney. Good design, there -- along with a great set-up...

[jeffwarne]

It's too bad that BB has been impacted by poor weather in '02 & '09 but both events there were carried out well inspite of the incessant raindrops.

You're right, Matt -- it's always nice to see the US Open leader, desperately holding on to a one-stroke lead, take the bold and risky play of teeing off with a 6-iron, to assure his 9-iron approach would hold the green, on the last hole of the tourney. Good design, there -- along with a great set-up...

Phil,
Why bust Bethpage for the setup of 18-it's 420 yards long.
It's not like it's Olympic's #18

[Greg Tallman]

John:

I could care less about silly polls in which Joe Sixpack and Mary Wineglass are asked for their preferred US Open site.

Interesting comment from a marketing guy.

[Phil McDade]

It's too bad that BB has been impacted by poor weather in '02 & '09 but both events there were carried out well inspite of the incessant raindrops.

You're right, Matt -- it's always nice to see the US Open leader, desperately holding on to a one-stroke lead, take the bold and risky play of teeing off with a 6-iron, to assure his 9-iron approach would hold the green, on the last hole of the tourney. Good design, there -- along with a great set-up...

Phil,
Why bust Bethpage for the setup of 18-it's 420 yards long.
It's not like it's Olympic's #18

Jeff:

Matt's been dissing PBeach all week long (or at least until Tiger got hot), suggesting strongly those doing well were the beneficiaries of lucky bounces. He's devoted a full thread to his argument the greens at Pebble ought to be completely redone, because they suffer from a fact of agronomy common on the West Coast during the summer.

My argument is that all Open courses, that I've seen, suffer from some sort of weakness. For Matt and Pebble, it's the arbirtary nature of the course and poor greens. For me, at Bethpage Black, it's a woefully poor finishing hole, that provides little challenge and little ability to play in a varied way, along with an overall emphasis on length on the 17 holes prior.

Really good Open courses -- Pebble, Oakmont, Shinnecock -- feature closing holes that provide some level of challenge, uncertainty or variation on how they can be played. BBlack is a 6-iron/9-iron -- a lame finish.

[John Moore II]

It's too bad that BB has been impacted by poor weather in '02 & '09 but both events there were carried out well inspite of the incessant raindrops.

You're right, Matt -- it's always nice to see the US Open leader, desperately holding on to a one-stroke lead, take the bold and risky play of teeing off with a 6-iron, to assure his 9-iron approach would hold the green, on the last hole of the tourney. Good design, there -- along with a great set-up...

Phil,
Why bust Bethpage for the setup of 18-it's 420 yards long.
It's not like it's Olympic's #18

Jeff:

Matt's been dissing PBeach all week long (or at least until Tiger got hot), suggesting strongly those doing well were the beneficiaries of lucky bounces. He's devoted a full thread to his argument the greens at Pebble ought to be completely redone, because they suffer from a fact of agronomy common on the West Coast during the summer.

My argument is that all Open courses, that I've seen, suffer from some sort of weakness. For Matt and Pebble, it's the arbirtary nature of the course and poor greens. For me, at Bethpage Black, it's a woefully poor finishing hole, that provides little challenge and little ability to play in a varied way, along with an overall emphasis on length on the 17 holes prior.

Really good Open courses -- Pebble, Oakmont, Shinnecock -- feature closing holes that provide some level of challenge, uncertainty or variation on how they can be played. BBlack is a 6-iron/9-iron -- a lame finish.

What weaknesses do Oakmont, Shinnecock Hills and Pinehurst #2 have? I'm really interested to hear this.

[Jim Hoak]

Matt--On your question, if it were my decision, would I prefer Shinnecock or Bethpage--I'd definitely take Shinnecock as to the golf course.  But I'm not sure the course is the only consideration--Bethpage is open for play by more people, they want the Open, they have facilities they have used before, the population base is closer to Bethpage, etc.  But most importantly, I'm not sure that a majority of the members at Shinnecock want the Open again.  That's the rumor I hear--maybe someone with more knowledge than I can comment.  But obviously, a private club like Shinnecock has different goals, needs and priorities than a public facility like Bethpage.  I wouldn't fault them if they decided not to have the Open.  It's their course to do what they decide.  As I hear it, the USGA would probably very much like the Open there again, but it's not their decision alone.

[Matt_Ward]

Greg:

The average Joe and Jane do not understand the nature of what a major sport event entails. To rest one's decisions simply on that element is barking up the wrong tree to me.

Folks at the USGA and SH did an incredible thing in '86 when SH was choosen for the ultimate golf championship.

I'm just hoping that smart minds -- on both sides -- will prevail here. SH is no less tha quality of any of the top tier US Open layouts. Not having one played there frequently would be a huge loss.

Jim H:

Well said and I agree.

I just hope the different parties can come to an agreement -- the absence of SH would be a devestating loss to golf and the US Open.

Phil:

Appreciate the sarcastic barb to me on BB -- let's be clear -- OK.

I never have liked the closing hole at BB -- said so many times -- just ask Phil Y to vouch for that.

It would be best if the closing hole were changed to a driveable par-4 closing hole -- instead of the pinched-in bunker complex you see with the hole now -- all that does is do what many players have done there -- choose an iron and it becomes a very one-dimensional hole.

One final thing to help your blindness to what people did at BB inspite of horrendous weather -- Craig Currier and staff plus hundreds of volunteers did a great job in overcoming a very difficult and thankless job.

Another correction -- I have noting but high praise for PB -- so drop the "diss" nonsense.

I just believe -- and no one has said otherwise -- that SH is no less a course than PB -- in fact, I believe it's a better overall course for its overall consistency and shot demands.

[Jon Wiggett]

Greg:


Folks at the USGA and SH did an incredible thing in '86 when SH was choosen for the ultimate golf championship.

the absence of SH would be a devestating loss to golf and the US Open.

Matt,

I am really sorry to say this but I think you have totally lost the plot on this. Do you really think the the '86 US Open was 'the ultimate golf championship' i.e. the greatest golf championship of all time? What was its memorable moment, you know that that sticks in the mind of almost every golfer?

To your second statement, how would golf be devestated? I mean would the US Open fold if SH was dropped or half the top players refuse to play?

Please do either:

1. Answer a direct question i.e. the two above or,
2. Start curbing your over enthusiasm with realism or,
3. Seek help in some way

I don't want to be rude but those statements you are making are clearly idiotic to most people on here

Jon

[Tim_Cronin]

Matt,
   If Shiiy isn't interested, what about that next-door neighbor, Sebonack, if it comes through a Women's Open in style? Trivia: It would be the second former road race track to host an Open.

[John Moore II]

Greg:


Folks at the USGA and SH did an incredible thing in '86 when SH was choosen for the ultimate golf championship.

the absence of SH would be a devestating loss to golf and the US Open.

Matt,

I am really sorry to say this but I think you have totally lost the plot on this. Do you really think the the '86 US Open was 'the ultimate golf championship' i.e. the greatest golf championship of all time? What was its memorable moment, you know that that sticks in the mind of almost every golfer?

To your second statement, how would golf be devestated? I mean would the US Open fold if SH was dropped or half the top players refuse to play?

Please do either:

1. Answer a direct question i.e. the two above or,
2. Start curbing your over enthusiasm with realism or,
3. Seek help in some way

I don't want to be rude but those statements you are making are clearly idiotic to most people on here

Jon

I must say I didn't see this comment earlier. Matt, please explain how the 86 US Open was the ultimate championship? Even before it started, forget about after the event, because there is not one memorable shot to come out of the 86 Open so far as I can recall. So, what made it the ultimate Open? And why would it be devastating for SH to be left out? I personally, and most of the golf public I suspect, could care less if they bring the Open back to Shinny. Whatever. The US Open went 90 years without it, so it must not be too important, I don't care what anyone says.

[jeffwarne]

Matt,
   If Shiiy isn't interested, what about that next-door neighbor, Sebonack, if it comes through a Women's Open in style? Trivia: It would be the second former road race track to host an Open.

huh?

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()