[Matt_Ward]

No doubt having a 100th anniversary prompted it -- but frankly i have to wonder how PB gets a return engagement so soon when a place like SH is no less deserving. SH will not have to wait at least until 2020 -- that would mean a 16-year wait since the 04 event.

I don't doubt the fanfare tied to PB and having a california site allows for early evening telecasts to the eastern time zone which will boost ratings with this year's event.

SH is too good a course to be sidelined -- I can only imagine that the frayed feelings between certain parties still present.

A pity indeed ...

[Jon Wiggett]

Matt,

you raise a very good point. I think that part of the reason is that where as SH is seen as a very, very good course PB is 'iconic'.

Jon

[Matt_Ward]

Jon:

"Iconic."

Please help me out with that one.

SH is no less the equal to PB and has all the wherewithal to handle a US Open.

Being left out for a period that will extend to at least 16 years is frankly a shock.

[Sean Leary]

Matt,

What makes you think they want it before then?

[John Moore II]

I agree that Pebble Beach is somewhat of an Icon among golf courses. You have the views which anyone who knows anything about golf can recognize. You have the history of Nicklaus, Watson and Woods. And it has the ability to host. I would bet anyone that Payne Stewart's win at Pinehurst and what happened later that year helped Pinehurst a lot in the eyes of people.

For many, Pebble Beach, rightly or not, is THE United States Open venue.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

Beg to disagree -- SH is no less worthy -- it's the east coast's equivalent in so many ways.

Sean:

I don't know that -- but clearly something went terribly amiss after the '04 event.

SH is a national treasure and all that is reasonably possible should see to it that the course is in the rota every ten years. Frankly, the NY area, because of the greatness of the courses and the mega big metro area should have the US Open no less than twice every ten years. The other site can rotated among Bethpage Black and Winged Foot / West.

Bringing back the US Open for the 100th anniversary for PB is noteworthy but not at SH's expense in my mind.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

How do you figure Shinnecock is so entitled to host the U.S. Open that scheduling it at Pebble Beach again is "at Shinnecock's expense" ??

In fact, the USGA pays all these clubs a not-insignificant amount of money to host the event, so the Open is never "at the expense" of any club.  But for whatever reason, they've not come to an agreement with Shinnecock again yet.  The politics of the last Open have more than a little to do with that, I would guess ... and the money might have something to do with it, too.

[John Moore II]

John:

Beg to disagree -- SH is no less worthy -- it's the east coast's equivalent in so many ways.

Matt-Please read where I said that Shinny was any less worthy than Pebble to host the US Open. I didn't. I simply said that Pebble Beach was a outright Icon among US Open venues and I would challenge you to ask anyone who watches the US Open to name just one course that has hosted the Open. I'd bet that 75% of them (and not people on this site) would name Pebble first. Then you'd get the others. Thats just fact. Thats why Pebble is the Icon. There might be any number of other courses that would be better Open sites, but they're not Pebble. Thats all I was saying.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

I could care less about silly polls in which Joe Sixpack and Mary Wineglass are asked for their preferred US Open site. The people who know better should include SH -- no less than what PB gets. End of story.

Johnny Miller said it best years ago in a Golf World column -- SH and PB are two sites - along with Oakmont (my opinion) that need to be on the rota every ten years -- no less than that. PB is not any better but for some reason the USGA and the owners of both PB and Pinehurst #2 seem to be favored.

Tom:

No course -- including PB is "entitled" to anything.

PB will host the US Open AGAIN in just nine (9) years -- SH last hosted in '04 -- two US Open will have been played at PB before SH gets a sniff at another US Open. Where's the balance in that?

You can't remotely make the case that SH is no less able and with a solid pedigree in design to hold the USA's premier golf event.

I don't know all the inner sanctum politics but SH sitting on the sidelines is not good thing. It's time for the forces who are at the top of golf's pyramid within the USGA and club to not this matter go on and on.

Tom, please let's not quibble at the word "expense" -- it was meant in the figurative sense in providing for a real balancing act of top tier sites. SH should not be left out. Simple as that. If you don't get that then your words in CG don't mean as much to me now.

[John Moore II]

Matt-Maybe the people at Shinny don't want the Open right now. Ever think of that?

And I have never, never said that Shinny was less able to host an open or had less pedigree than does PB. Never did I say that. If I did, please show it to me so that I might retract that statement most hastily.

I am simply saying that in the public eye, Pebble is an Icon, one that everyone recognizes and Shinny is just another open venue that is only seen by the public every 10 years or so.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon:

"Iconic."

Please help me out with that one.

SH is no less the equal to PB and has all the wherewithal to handle a US Open.

Being left out for a period that will extend to at least 16 years is frankly a shock.

Matt,

I agree with you that SH is a great course and US Open venue. However, if you do not understand that PB is 'iconic' where as SH is not then you do not understand as much as you think you do.

Jon

[John Moore II]

Jon:

"Iconic."

Please help me out with that one.

SH is no less the equal to PB and has all the wherewithal to handle a US Open.

Being left out for a period that will extend to at least 16 years is frankly a shock.

Matt,

I agree with you that SH is a great course and US Open venue. However, if you do not understand that PB is 'iconic' where as SH is not then you do not understand as much as you think you do.

Jon

Jon-Its obvious he doens't understand the difference, I've tried to lay it out for him as simply as humanly possible and he doesn't seem to get it. So...

[Jim_Kennedy]

As Padraig Harrington said, Pebble Beach is nothing less than our Old Course.

2018 is still an open date so the possibility exists that Shinnecock won't have to wait until 2020, but I hope the USGA continues to bring the Open to nothing but publically accessible venues for the foreseeable future.

 

[Jim Hoak]

Sean has it right.  Why do you think that SH wants it?  It is a private club with limited upside to having the Open and some bad memories from the last one.  It certainly isn't an "either/or" type isssue.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Because golf suffers from NOT having it there every ten years !

John:

If YOU believe that Shinnecock is "just another" US Open site then you need to really need to understand what the insertion of Shinnecock did with the championship when it re-emeged in 1986. I would urge you to re-read Johnny Miller's (no less a defender of PB than any man alive) regarding how much SH adds to the event itself -- it was in Golf World right around the time of the '04 event.

If you believe that PB is the first among equals then I respectfully disagree.

Jon:

I understand plenty -- SH is no less the equal of PB -- ditto Oakmont -- ditto Merion. Each of them is "iconic" and should be a part of the US Open "unofficial" rota.

Jim:

You have a call -- it's either Bethpage Black or Shinnecock for the 2018 US Open -- which is it ?

[Matthew Rose]

I suspect the USGA wants some distance between '04 and the next one there... just a thought.

[Matt_Ward]

Matt:

Let's hope it's not the same amount of time space that happened between SH's first Open and the '86 event !

[Matthew Rose]

Yes, 90 years would be unfortunate

[John Moore II]

John:

If YOU believe that Shinnecock is "just another" US Open site then you need to really need to understand what the insertion of Shinnecock did with the championship when it re-emeged in 1986. I would urge you to re-read Johnny Miller's (no less a defender of PB than any man alive) regarding how much SH adds to the event itself -- it was in Golf World right around the time of the '04 event.

If you believe that PB is the first among equals then I respectfully disagree.

Matt-I must request that you return to school and revisit reading comprehension. No where in any of my posts have I said that I thought that SH was just another US Open venue. It is obviously a superb course with a superb history, no doubt. However, go ask your average club or public course golfer (outside of the Met area) and see which course comes to mind first when thinking of US Open venues. I'll bet its Pebble.

Certainly if given the choice between Shinnecock or Bethpage, most who know golf courses will pick Shinnecock, thats an easy choice. However, I think there is no doubt that the NY State Parks benefit far more from having the Open at BPB than the members do from having it at Shinnecock.

I'll say it again, hopefully it registers this time, maybe the members of Shinnecock Hills simply don't want to have the US Open there right now. That is their choice to make.

[Matt_Ward]

John M:

My comprehension is just fine -- thank you.

Here's what YOU said ...

" ... and Shinny is just another open venue that is only seen by the public every 10 years or so."

John, if you want to base what should be done on the average Joe and Jane then knock yourself out with such a silly polling desire.

The folks that should know better should be doing what the folks did when the decision was reached when Shinnecock re-emerged after being left out for way too long.

[John Moore II]

John M:

My comprehension is just fine -- thank you.

Here's what YOU said ...This is part of what I said, allow me to add in the beginning of the sentence for clarity.

"I am simply saying that in the public eye {emphasis added}, Pebble is an Icon, one that everyone recognizes ... and Shinny is just another open venue that is only seen by the public every 10 years or so."

John, if you want to base what should be done on the average Joe and Jane then knock yourself out with such a silly polling desire.

The folks that should know better should be doing what the folks did when the decision was reached when Shinnecock re-emerged after being left out for way too long.

And what was that? Do explain.

Oh, by the way Matt, I might still have interest in playing BPB with you this summer as we'd bantered about earlier this year.

[Jon Wiggett]

Matt,

Shinnecock is a great golf course and offers a type of course that probably no other on the 'rota' does. It should get the US Open if the membership there want it but is it as important to this event as PB? No, plainly not.

SH is not 'iconic'. There are very few courses that are. In the US PB is iconic as is Augusta and for the golfing connoisseur PV. In Europe certainly TOC and possibly Muirfield.

John,

I think he probably does understand it but he can't accept it.

Jon

[Matt_Ward]

Jon:

SH not important as PB.

Please -- with all due respect -- put down the kool-aid drink and think that one again.

SH, along with Oakmont and Merion (hopefully all will go well in 2013), are the back bone line-up for US Opens. I fully endorse the desire of the USGA to have public course venues -- but NOT at the expense of the great ones I just mentioned.

Jon -- read TD's comments on SH -- and see how it stacks up against his comments on PB. Read the last sentence slowly and allow it to permeate your thought process.

The eastern LI area is "iconic" to American golf and SH is that rightful ambassador to demonstrate that reality every ten years.

John:

It would help if you would separate one thought from another -- it is quite possible that someone can read it differently. Your EMPHASIS was only ADDED after the fact -- not before. My comprehension partner is quite good -- contrary to what you believe.

Silly polls don't mean squat. The people who should know better are the ones who should get off their duffs and get SH back into the rotation. I could give a rats ass about what the average Joe and Jane thinks. We are talking about the US Open here -- not the club member guest and the like.

SH is no less "iconic" than PB -- those who understand golf realize that -- it's no less the same concerns that were talked about when Merion was brought back into service.

PB benefits beyond its location -- the time zone situation will allow for higher ratings because of the later tee times and how the eastern time zone will be able to watch golf even as last as 10 PM Sunday. For the PB and USGA that means mega $$$$.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Matt,
I think my earlier post made it clear. 

 

[John Moore II]

But Matt, how many normal club golfers, not private club members or the like, would have heard of Shinnecock and how many would have heard of Pebble Beach? Answer that question, and be truthful, and you'll have the answer as to why we say Pebble is an Icon and Shinnecock is not.

Pebble Beach has held 4 US Opens (not counting this year)
Champions:
Jack Nicklaus
Tom Watson
Tom Kite (certain outlier)
Tiger Woods

Shinnecock Hills has held 3 in recent times
Champions:
Raymond Floyd
Corey Pavin
Retief Goosen

Shinnecock does not have nearly the pedigree of champions that Pebble Beach does, and that is part of why it is so recognized. Also, it is seen every year in the Pro-Am. Shinnecock is seen once every 9 or 10 years by the general public and then it fades back into relative obscurity, likely just how the members want it. Certainly Shinny has more history overall, but how many average golfers could tell you the first 5 clubs that founded the USGA?

Oh, and one more little demonstration of why Pebble is an Icon:

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