Rock Creek's greens

[Jim Franklin]

We had our member guest this weekend and one of my friends had a guy from Montana as his guest. I told him how much I loved Rock Creek and he said the greens were way too difficult. He said he heard they were redoing all of them because the membership was complaining. I find this very hard to believe so I wanted to see if there was any truth to his assertion that the greens at RCCC are being redone.

[Mac Plumart]

Sounds like they may not be fair.   

[Roger Wolfe]

Excellent reply Mac !!

[Jim Franklin]

Trust me, the greens are more than fair. If you are on teh wrong side, you are in trouble. Isn't that how it should be??? Aren't the greens the first line of defense on a great golf course?

[Jed Peters]

W. He said he heard they were redoing all of them because the membership was complaining.

What, all 50 of them, only 5 of them who live anywhere enough to play even a couple times a year?

Right. Sounds like a lot of talking out one's ass to me.

[Ryan Farrow]

or...... they could just slow them down.... what are they running anyways?

I didn't notice anything that over the top, and I doubt Mr. Iverson would screw ALL 18 GREENS UP!

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Rock Creek are TAME when compared to the likes of Sebonack.

It's laughable -- but I agree w Shivas (my God, did I just say that) -- the issue for such people is a simple one -- hit better approaches to get closer and practice one's putting.

Rock Creek's greens when I was there were just fine.

[John Kirk]

No, this is a legitimate remark, not that I have any inside information on the opinions of club members.  But when I dissect Rock Creek with friends who have played the course, a recurring critique is the complexity of the greens.  They are not severely tilted, but they are very complex, and reading greens there is hard work.

I doubt they will redo all of the greens, though.

By the way, I think Rock Creek is outstanding, and every time somebody asks me whether they should visit, I enthusiastically encourage them to do so.

[Tom Huckaby]

Hiding this here to avoid potential lambasting... but....

Say one has a life that allows nearly no golf trips.

You can do ONE and ONE only in the next 16 months.

Rock Creek or Old Macdonald?

On topic here, having never been to Rock Creek, I just have to ask also - can't they / won't they keep them at speeds that make them complex and yet not absurd?  Think Pasatiempo... 10 or less is complex and fun... faster than that leads to absurdity.  Is that the case at Rock Creek?

[Tom_Doak]

We have heard a fair amount of protest over the greens at Rock Creek.

There is a reasonable amount of slope, and they keep them bullet-fast, paying no attention at all to our recommendations on speed.  On top of that, because of the mountainside terrain, people get fooled as to how much slope there is, so good players in particular are likely to complain.

Our client, Mr. Foley, is a member of Oakmont (among other places), and I have not been above asking how Rock Creek's greens compare to those.  But it's possible they may insist we rebuild a few of them at some point.  It hasn't happened yet, though.

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

The greens at Rock Creek are fine. I do agree with you that if green speeds were pushed way too hard then situations would be different. The green contours at Sebonack are more demanding than what you have at Rock Creek.

Those who raise the issue need a few putting lessons or hit their approaches closer to the hole.

Rock Creek is not DUMB DOWN golf -- it's about producing fine golf shots that will be approrpiately rewarded when executed well.

I have not played ld Macdonald yet so I can answer your quetion.

Let me put it this way -- if it's Pac Dunes and Rock Creek -- I'd say make travel plans to MT !

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt - I think Tom D answers the question:

"There is a reasonable amount of slope, and they keep them bullet-fast, paying no attention at all to our recommendations on speed."

SO... it at least can be likened to the Pasatiempo situation.  That's too bad.

And thanks, that does say a lot to choose RC over PD for the one trip - maybe even enough. 

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

If one were to throw forward the nation's most demanding greens -- Oakmont, ANGC and OH/S, to name just three -- Rock Creek is quite competitive but when people bitch and moan about green speeds then frankly some of that has to be a "look in the mirror" situation.

Tom provided plenty of ways to get to the pin location -- it's up the player(s) to know their putting stroke and if in doubt hit better approach shots to compensate for it.

[Tom_Doak]

I will say this is one case where I wish some magazine would get off their butts and get this course rated ... I think there would be much less protest from the membership about the greens if the course was ranked highly by GOLF or GOLF DIGEST.  And I have not heard any protests about the greens from any of those people who have visited, although some may have bitten their tongues.

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt:  I get that.

But the man himself said they're keeping it at speeds that he and his people recommended they do not do.

That's all I wanted to know... what the deal was.  I make no comments as to quality, etc... I was just wondering what might prompt anyone to complain about the greens.  And this explains that.

TH

ps - Tom - get me a plane and/or a plane ticket, make sure I get an overnight stay at least, and I am there.
 

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

People will bitch and moan just for the sake of being heard because saying "they suck" or "can't putt worth a lick" is far too e-z.

[Jim Franklin]

Huck -

I have not played Old Mac yet, but will do so in August. However, if I ever have the chance to go back to Rock Creek, I will not hesitate. As an example, I have recently been invited to Northern Ireland and I am undecided. Now if that same crew invited me to Rock Creek, I would be on the next flight.

As for the greens, I did not think they were overboard. There are plenty of places to place a pin, but if they try to make the greens SUPER fast, I am sure people will b!tch because even teh pros are not always on the right side of the hole all of the time.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim - thanks.  I guess what I am looking for is which NEEDS to be seen more, either in terms of the rating process, or fun for the rater?

And in terms of the greens, question:  can you envision absudity happening there, as it can at Pasatiempo?  By that I mean, uphill putts that are missed rolling back to one's feet just due to gravity?

That is justified bitching, as I see things.  Lots of 3 and 4 putts due to ball on wrong side of a bad contour, that is not justified... as Matt and you have said.

TH

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

Just to be clear, there are no 5% tilts to greens at Rock Creek, as there are at Pasatiempo.  We kept the maximum slope for a pin placement area to 3%, just as we've done for most of our other courses the past ten years.  The greens would have to get above 15 for a ball to turn around and come back to you on that sort of slope.

There are just a lot of tricky internal contours between the 3% areas, and I will again mention the mountain setting, which makes some people miss the 3% slope and putt way past the hole accordingly.

[Tom Huckaby]

shivas - thanks - that answers it perfectly.
Although I could have bet my house on your answer.

Is there anyone ELSE out there who has either played both, or knows enough about both, to give me a recommendation?

I'll even up the ante further... say one can see ONLY ONE in one's lifetime - what then?

TH

ps - that is not far-fetched for me.  Seriously.  I may only get to one or the other of these in my life.

[Sean Leary]

I have a few non GCA friends who have played it a bunch. To a man, they love it but think a couple of greens are over the top.

I suppose one could say the same thing about a bunch of TD's courses.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom, if you only get to see one in your lifetime, I think you owe it to yourself to play #4, 7, 8, and 10 through 16 at Rock Creek.  I guarantee you that you will view at least 3 of these holes as among the coolest and most unique holes you've ever played...

You have made these guarantees many times before.
I KNOW your answers before you write them. 

Can I please get input from someone else?

 

[Jim Franklin]

I agree with Shiv.

I will give you a more detailed report the second week of August.

[Tom Huckaby]

I agree with Shiv.

I will give you a more detailed report the second week of August.

You don't count either, but MAYBE you will the 2nd week of August.
 

[Jim Franklin]

You sound like my wife .