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Sam Kestin

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The Seawane Club--Course Photos
« on: June 13, 2010, 07:07:00 AM »
Folks,

Long time, no post...my apologies for that. You'll definitely be seeing me on here more and more in the coming months. To be perfectly honest, I've almost been avoiding this thing...Every time I check in and start reading up on things in the discussion board I end up getting lost in the enjoyment of browsing all of it and just like that five hours have gone by!

Anyway, I just moved back to NYC and have been playing a decent amount out at my home course--the Seawane Club in Hewlett Harbor, NY. When I got here I started digging around on GCA to see what you guys thought of the golf course and one thing I noticed is that there isn't a whole lot on here about the course since its renovation by Kay/Smith Golf Design. In the past, a lot of people had talked about how they wanted to see some photos of the redesign. I've taken a bunch--so check em' out below. Hope you all enjoy. I've got a ton more if you all want so just let me know if there's interest in seeing some more pics.

Sam Kestin

PS--A couple of the pictures aren't really "photos" per se--they're more these watercolor type things I'm learning how to do in photoshop. Do you guys think these look cool? I'm playing around with it and sometimes they're a great way to rescue a photo that didn't come out right but can still make a half decent "watercolor."

PPS--I tried to put them in at the bottom where it says "Attach" after unsuccessfully trying to use the "Insert Image" tool. If this doesn't work, I'd most certainly appreciate someone telling me exactly how I'm supposed to do this!





   

Sam Kestin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Seawane Club--Course Photos
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2010, 07:21:01 AM »
Hey it worked! I'll give you guys a little tour of the pictures:

Photo #1--The third green as viewed from its back-left...roughly in the area of the Championship tee on #4. The third is about 370 yards but usually plays into a prevailing breeze off the left.

Photo #2--The fourth green as viewed from the short-left part of the fairway. This hole is 291 yards...drivable for most under ideal wind conditions but into the prevailing wind from the right the little pot bunker in the center-right of the photo very much comes into play. The inset shows the tough angle from the tee. Players hoping to drive the green must fire their drives over the canal on a line just right of the right edge of the tee box visible in the picture. Any ball overcut even slightly finds the drink. I snap hook it into the fescue/bunkers left almost every time.

Photo #3--The twelfth green with the thirteenth fairway in the background.

Photo #4--The fourteenth green from the front--this hole is a one-shotter of some 215y. It has one of the best green complexes on the course and is a tough 3 even if you manage to hit the green in regulation.

Photo #5--One of these "watercolor effect" photos of the fourteenth green. I'm not the least bit artistically inclined, but I kinda think it looks pretty cool with this effect. What do you guys think? I'm going to be publishing these photos (where exactly I won't say for fear of being accused of "commercializing" GCA) and wouldn't mind getting your expert advice on whether or not this is a legitimate way to show a golf course.  

Photo #6--The view back of the third (left) and fourth (right) from the bridge overlooking the canal cutting between those holes and in front of the sixteenth green. Another "watercolor effect" photo.

Hope you guys enjoy the pictures. Let me know if you've got any questions about the golf course or what's pictured. If you'd like me to post more photos of it, let me know that too. Hope you all have an easy Sunday.

--Sam

Sam Kestin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Seawane Club--Course Photos
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2010, 07:33:45 AM »
Whoops...left out one of the pictures in the descriptions above. It's picture #4 (labeled as "The Second to the Sixth"). It (shockingly) illustrates the second shot to the par-5 sixth hole. The inset shows what the green complex looks like as viewed from the 12th tee at the green's high left.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Seawane Club--Course Photos
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2010, 07:39:55 AM »
Sam,

The work at Seawane was discussed here a few years ago when Jason Blasberg was active on this forum:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,15487.0/
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Sam Kestin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Seawane Club--Course Photos
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2010, 07:50:25 AM »
Mr. Shaffer--

I actually did see those photos but they are mostly mid-construction photos. I figured you guys might want a look at some of the finished product. I read quite a bit of what Mr. Blasberg posted--he was a Seawane expert to be sure! I'd actually been looking for him around the club because he certainly seems like a guy I'd enjoy teeing it up with but nobody around the club seems to have seen him in some time. Is he still a member?

Jason, if you're out there, shoot me a message. I'd love to get in touch and pick your brain a bit about the "new" Seawane. The current greens chairman has been making a lot of ongoing changes each season since the redesign and I'd be most interested in hearing what you think.

--Sam

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Seawane Club--Course Photos
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2010, 08:12:18 AM »
Sam,

Is Kay still active at Seawane? You mentioned ongoing "changes" since the work was done.

Steve

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Sam Kestin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Seawane Club--Course Photos
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2010, 08:32:52 AM »
Not sure what Mr. Kay's level of involvement is in the ongoing work at the club. Most of it is quarterbacked by the Greens Chairman (and 10+ time Seawane Club Champion) Edward Nusblatt.

A decent amount of the changes are pretty subtle and probably don't require Mr. Kay's work--for example, the sod-faced bunker fronting the tenth green has been reworked over the past year to change the angle of the face from about 60 degrees to basically 90 degrees. It's such a small change you probably wouldn't even notice it from one season to the next...but it changes the playing characteristics of the hole dramatically from the green all the way back to the tee.

In the past, that front bunker was the miss--even with the sod wall. With the angle the wall used to be at, players who missed in the bunker short could still recover and easily make par from almost anywhere in the bunker. Now, with the wall going almost straight up, 50%+ of shots missed in the short bunker require either a pitch out sideways, a blast backwards or a Sergio (2000 Open at St. Andrews) style putt to an area of the bunker that's a bit more playable.

This changes not only the recovery plays from the bunker, but also the strategy a player must take in the fairway and off the tee. From the fairway, the new rule is "when it doubt, take more club" to avoid the bunker. In the past, it used to be "take less club." All the sudden, just from this small change, the swale beyond the shallow putting surface looks like a great miss. Back on the tee, players are less inclined to take fairway metals and drivers because the cost of missing the fairway at #10 has increased significantly. From the rough, 6 is a very plausible score even from inside 120 yards on a hole that measures less than 360 yards.

I could easily argue that the hole is now one of the best non-drivable short four-pars around. I'll snap and post some pictures of it if you'd like. I think it was a genius little change and I'm pretty sure Mr. Nusblatt and our excellent Super (Brian Benedict) deserve all the credit for it. But I'm happy to check on the details for you next time I head out there.

They're also building what looks like 700 new tee boxes on the 11th hole. It's really only four new ones I think, but the suddenness (is that a word?) of it makes it seem like more. This is a much more extensive project and might have required some assistance from Mr. Kay. Not sure though. Will look into it for you as well.

There are a bunch of other little changes here and there as well. The course also lost what I've been told is anywhere between 50-150 trees thanks to storms we had in March. I also hear some scuttlebutt about changes to the third hole (pictured above). There is talk of making the entire green complex and the tee at #4 an "island." Not sure about this though--could just be rumor. If this is true, I'd imagine it might require more than just the work of Mr. Benedict and Mr. Nusblatt.

--Sam   

Matt_Ward

Re: The Seawane Club--Course Photos
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2010, 10:22:42 AM »
Sam:

Welcome aboard.

Seawane has definitely improved -- getting riid of the trees was a big time gain for the course.

The interesting thing about the course is that finding it via a car is no small feat ! ;D

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Seawane Club--Course Photos
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2010, 02:42:07 PM »
Sam,

I've always liked Seawane, although I'm not crazy about the new, tall fescue rough, I think it's overly penal on a windy course.

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Seawane Club--Course Photos
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2010, 03:59:55 PM »
Seawane has always caught my eye on my many GoogleMaps junkets all over the place.  I've been particularly struck by the huge, rugged-looking bunkers all over the place.  Who designed Seawane originally?

Cheers.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Robert Emmons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Seawane Club--Course Photos
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2010, 08:55:14 PM »
Tim,

It was a Dev Emmet course...RHE

Sam Kestin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Seawane Club--Course Photos
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2010, 10:37:12 PM »
Mr. Emmons is right about about Emmet. The redesign was done by Kay/Smith...but former Club President Michael Yohai should not be left out of this discussion for the unbelievable role he played in the Kay/Smith work. One of these days I'm going to sit down with Mr. Yohai and talk to him more specifically about his level of involvement--but my current understanding is that much of the changes were constructed by Kay/Smith at the direction of Mr. Yohai. For a man with absolutely no background in course design/architecture, whatever it was that he saw in his head for the future of the Seawane Club has most certainly panned out into a course I enjoy immensely. All the members, including myself, are almost equally as appreciative of Mr. Yohai as we are of Mr. Emmet!

--Sam   

Sam Kestin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Seawane Club--Course Photos
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2010, 10:48:41 PM »
Mr. Mucci--

I certainly wouldn't disagree with you. Mid-season (June, July, August) that fescue can get seriously nasty--and is beyond penal at times. In medal play, the course always has given me the feeling that I'm just one bad swing away from making a 10. You can get a little frisky in that gunch and end up slashing away for hours.

That having been said, I will say that I enjoy the fescue as an element of the golf course not only in match play (where you can give some of those fescue balls a "FIDO"--F*** It, Drive On) but also during the times in the season when it is actually very playable. In late April, all of May and early June that grass is still not quite as healthy as it is during the summer. When this is the case, recovery shots can be played from these areas quite reasonably--adding more choice between risk/reward as golfers decide exactly how much they can get out of the variable lies one might find in there.

If you'd ever like to come on out and play the golf course during a time when the fescue is a little less obnoxious, feel free to shoot me a message and let me know. It'd be my pleasure...and I swear I'll find a way to give you some half decent directions (because lord knows Mr. Ward is absolutely correct--the game of guess and check one can end up playing on those series of streets in/around Hewlett Harbor is beyond frustrating).

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Seawane Club--Course Photos
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2010, 11:38:26 PM »
For years I was privileged to play in the the 5 Towns Charity Pro-Am and the Pro-Member.  According to those who mattered in the club, Kay was responsible for construction of restored bunkers, mounds, and new tees according to the desires of the members who mattered and Bobby Longo the head professional.  Kay was a cheap architect used in order to give credibilty to members  who really had interest in Dining, Cards, and Dining.  I was paired with Eddy Nusblatt several times and can state that he is a very good golfer who appreciates great architecture. 

Sam Kestin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Seawane Club--Course Photos
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2010, 07:06:08 AM »
Mr. Deruntz--

Thanks for the spot of info on the dynamic between Kay and the membership. This is definitely a subject I'd really like to find out more about...mostly because I happen to think this was one of the best redesigns I've seen in some time. I'm not necessarily saying one thing or another about the quality of what exists today...but to go from what existed a decade ago to what we find at Seawane today...let me just say that I'm beyond impressed with everyone involved.

As far as the "Dining, Cards and Dining" comment is concerned...I completely agree. However, if I may make one criticism of it, it would be that you forgot to put "Dining" another 700 times...hahaha. We may not be a "player's club" like Champions in Houston, TX or anything...but when it comes to eating Seawane would easily give any other club in America ten shots a side!

I second the notion of Mr. Nusblatt being both a keen golfer and course design critic. Only someone with a sharp eye for the game of golf and the works of art on which it is played could produce the changes I talked about to #10 in one of the posts above. I certainly can vouch for his mettle as a competitor as well...having played him in the finals of last year's Club Championship. 

For the purposes of further illustrating the change he made (and its genius, in my opinion), I'll insert another graphic. This one shows three views. The left photo is the player's view from the front bunker. Hard though it may be to imagine...this is the photo from PRIOR to Mr. Nusblatt's great little change to it. This bunker is somehow MORE severe today that it appears in this photo. The picture on the right is the view from the chipping area behind a green that is just 15 paces deep at most. The inset is the visual that confronts the player as he makes his decision about club selection back in the fairway.


jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Seawane Club--Course Photos
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2010, 09:23:05 AM »


As far as the "Dining, Cards and Dining" comment is concerned...I completely agree. However, if I may make one criticism of it, it would be that you forgot to put "Dining" another 700 times...hahaha. We may not be a "player's club" like Champions in Houston, TX or anything...but when it comes to eating Seawane would easily give any other club in America ten shots a side!







I'm curious why  given the above stated culture of the club, the course is maintained/decorated with such a penal presentation(1-3 foot tall grass which it would be inaccurate to describe as anything less than fescue on steroids and may not even be fescue.)
I thought there were some really cool holes that were marred by such presentation and detracted form what did appear to be interesting architecture by practically forcing an extremely conservative approach for a stroke play event (which I was competing in)but also way too penal for everyday member play.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sam Kestin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Seawane Club--Course Photos
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2010, 10:51:35 AM »
Mr. Warne--

Not really sure precisely why they maintain the summer fescue at the brutal length they do. I've got a couple of guesses...for one, I think that it would be way too much to ask of Brian Benedict and his staff to constantly maintain the fescue at a more reasonable height. To that same point, I'd also point out that most of it is the coverage for the mounding that exists on both sides of most holes. Running mowers over those things (not that I'd know, but I might guess) is probably no bargain.

Furthermore, I might contend that an additional reason for this semi-hazard is the course's lack of overwhelming length. At just 6725 all the way back, it is by no means an even average length golf course by today's championship standards. The fescue may prompt some players to throttle back and take the conservative approach you mentioned by hitting metal woods and irons off a number of tees...thus lengthening the effective yardage of the golf course.

Finally, I might suggest that part of why the course is kept in this manner is that the fescue does make for a beautiful frame for many of the holes. In my opinion, it adds to the "linksy" sort of feeling they were going for when they redesigned the place.

Still, I'll freely admit I don't know any of these things to be true. Additionally, I'd also admit that if I had my way the fescue would be kept at the reasonable length I find it in every May for the Richardson Invitational. To me, it's a much better hazard when it's borderline playable. I like the element it adds in as much as, after a poor drive, many players are forced to look at the lie and gamble on how cleanly the ball might come out of there. Those who bite off more than they can chew often fail to extricate their ball from the high grass. Conversely, the smarter player who (as George C Thomas would say) does not "try for more than in him lies" is properly rewarded for his superior mental discipline. When the rough is way way up, there isn't much advantage for the player who knows how to handle such situations.

Side note--which stroke play event were you playing in? The Richardson? The Head Professional Championship? US Mid-Am qualifying? We've had a few out there (plus a ton of outings) but those are the only ones as of late that I can remember.   

Also, just for my own curiosity, which were the holes you remember liking?
 

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