Ken,
Yes, there has been a lot of discussion about 4 at Colbert Hills. Is it fair to ask for a layup from the longest players to create a 200 yard second shot on a par 4? We did build a kick in bank from the right to allow an alternate shot, and it appears we didn't get the forward tees exactly right. Moreover, perhaps we just should have pushed more dirt in the valley beyond the landing area, but then, we wouldn't be following the natural contours, right?
Actually, I don't think the problem with #4 is the effect on long hitters. I play it from the white tees, and the correct play to be safe is to hit a seven iron off the tee, followed by a 220-yard second shot:
i don't get to Manhattan much so I have only played it four or five times, and never came up with a plan until I played in a scramble there last year with doctor who plays it 15-20 times a year. He's about my length, and that was how he always plays it. And he's right. I've tried to squeeze a few more yards out of the tee shot, and end up in the ravine, or in the deep rough on a downslope. I suppose that's where more dirt would have been helpful, even if all you did was kick up the end of the fairway so balls wouldn't be so likely run into the ravine.
Even better, IMHO, would have been to set the two shortest tees in such a way that you could see the line to play around the right end of the junk in the ravine. IIRC, the hole is downwind, but with the tee where it is, the trees on the right make it almost impossible to get shot through to the second fairway. If they were 40 or 50 yards to the left you might give players like me (and my wife) a true risk reward option where the risk was worth taking. As it stands, it's just a dumb play.
Now, if you ask my wife, she'd tell you #10 is unreasonable. She's a decent player, 14 handicap, hits it about 170 off the tee, and is very straight. But like most women, she doesn't get much carry off the fairway. So, when the prevailing SE wind is blowing, I've seen her lay up TWICE on that hole.
She can't get over the creek in two, so she lays up. Then she plays her third across the creek. But that still leaves a big carry over a creek and waist-high rough, so she just about has to lay up again. Even that leaves her a tough fifth shot to get on the green. Essentially, it becomes a hard par 7 for her. I can't imagine what a 30 handicap woman would face.
You're a really good guy for hanging out here and particpating and you gave us a good explanation of #4, so tell me about the 10th at Sand Creek.
I played it in stiff SE wind, and getting ANY shot into that first fairway was a bitch. Any mishit, and you're looking at having to lay up 300 yards from the green. And tha'ts playing from the 6,100-yard tees. Everyone in my group made double and we were happy to have been able to pull that off.
Without the wind, it's just a hard hole. But the wind blows out of the SE almost every day during golf season here.
By the way, don't pay too much attention to my griping, it's just that I rarely get to ask questions of an archie whose courses I've played. BTW -- I can't wait to play Three Fires... Is #10 a long par five into the wind?
Ken