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Ran Morrissett

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Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« on: June 08, 2010, 09:45:40 PM »
Most clubs don't understand that when they hire a big name design firm, rarely do they get the guy whose name is on the shingle out in the field for any extended period of time. In fact, when you hire a household name, frankly, you are doing so not knowing who will be actually doing the dirt work on your course. That is an interesting risk that many clubs unwittingly take, especially in busy times (which these are not) when the best shapers are likely to be tied up on projects elsewhere.

Not enough credit is given to shapers who actually build courses/features. Be it greens and/or tees and/or bunkers, etc., it is their talent that is what your eye will eventually see and making sure all the features tie in is a true art form. I hope GolfClubAtlas will do a better job of interviewing a variety of such folks going forward, starting here with Kye Goalby.

While Kye has designed some of his own courses, he has spent much of the past twelve years working with Renaissance Design on some of my all time favorite courses including Pacific Dunes, Old Macdonald and Ballyneal. His lengthy answers provide great insight into what it is like being out on his own as well as for working with Tom Doak. His description on the fun factor of the construction at Ballyneal I found to be telling. Getting the right chemistry and right work environment for the people doing the dirt work is crucial to the final product and I don't think it is a subject that many of us have ever given much thought. In fact, has Tom Paul even mentioned the subject in any of his first million  8) posts ? I don't think so. Kye gives Bruce Hepner tons of credit for making Ballyneal go so well and that fun factor clearly shines through in the finished product.

Kye spends much of Part I praising the work of others at Renaissance including Brian Schneider, Brian Slawnik and Eric Iverson. Right away, that tells me that Kye himself is seriously good for generally people with talent are also the ones where graciousness comes the easiest. Of course, he is too modest to dwell on his dirt work at Saint Louis Country Club, for instance, which is excellent through and through.

Posting a Q&A with Kye now is timely as it comes on the heels of the opening of Old Macdonald. His insider's view of Doak and how Tom gets the best from his crew is a must read. In the process, he shares some specifics on Old Macdonald like, for instance, crediting Brian Schneider for his role in getting the subtleties of the Road Hole green complex just right.

In addition, given who his Dad is, Kye is also one of the few guys who can smoothly insert a Sam Snead/Jack Nicklaus story as well! Plus, I can virtually guarantee that this will be the one and only time that The Big Lebowski factors into an answer in a Golf ClubAtlas.com interview  ;D.

Ben and I will post Part II with Kye Goalby next week but in the meanwhile, there is much to absorb here - hope you enjoy it.

Cheers,

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2010, 10:16:05 PM »
Great interview. Looking forward to part II as well as more interviews with the "dirt" guys.

TEPaul

Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2010, 10:29:25 PM »
You know Ran, you are not only one helluva course reviewer and architectural analyst, you are one helluva writer as well;

That initial post of yours on the Part I interview with Kye Goalby is just really excellent and it totally catches the man!

I think I have been heavily into this architecture thing for about a dozen years now, maybe a bit more, and in that time I have run across and spoken to and continue to speak to a ton of people in the business of architecture, agronomy, construction, golf administration, club and otherwise, whatever. In the field of architecture I can count three people who have had a massive affect on my learning curve and Kye Goalby is one of them. In your post above you catch a lot of the reason why.



"Getting the right chemistry and right work environment for the people doing the dirt work is crucial to the final product and I don't think it is a subject that many of us have ever given much thought. In fact, has Tom Paul even mentioned the subject in any of his first million posts ?"


Ran, despite the fact that you are one helluva course reviewer, architectural analyst and writer, that statement above only goes to prove you rarely if ever read the DG of your own websiite. The back archives not only proves I waxed wide and far on what goes on out there in the field and the chemistry out there, and particularly in the case of Kye Goalby and his cohorts, I actually got in trouble for waxing on about it as I did!

In my experience there's been nothing quite so fine as walking a few raw sites with Bill Coore discussing things and nothing so fine as walking some existing significant courses with Kye Goalby discussing things!


Ronald Montesano

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Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2010, 10:37:43 PM »
Kye Goalby and I inhabited a certain campus of a certain southern school together during the 1980s...while I was well aware of his prowess as a golfer (since I wrote for the school paper,) he had no idea of my gift as a future Spanish teacher and golf coach.  Thanks to GCA, we have connected and talked a great deal more than we ever did in college.  I write this blurb before delving into RM's interview part one with Kye and anticipate much of the same from Mr. Goalby.

--Ron M.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

JC Urbina

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Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2010, 12:16:50 AM »
I am glad to see Kye get some recognition by Ran.

I first met Kye at Apache Strong Hold.  If it wasn't for his efforts in the creation of Apache Stronghold it wouldn't have turned out as good as it did.  In fact when Kye shaped in the first rendition of the  par three 14th hole ( The Redan ) it was one of the coolest greens I had ever seen.  Kye went on to build a lot of cool features at Apache and  my only wish is that the golf course was still looking like it first did a year after it opened. 

I had the chance to work with Kye in Long Island New York at Sebonack and Old Macdonald in Bandon Oregon.    Kye, thanks for all your help in the creation of these golf courses.


TEPaul

Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2010, 07:41:46 AM »
I spent a day or two some years ago when Renaissance was doing Stonewall North watching Kye rough shape some bunkers with some piece of equipment. At dinner I asked him what was going on in his mind when he did that kind of work. He looked at me and said: "I have no idea; I just sort of mess with stuff and see what happens."

I always felt those bunkers he was doing had a remarkable sort of vertical look to them from afar but when you got up close they didn't really seem to be very vertical. I have no idea how a shaper pulls off a look and aesthetic perception like that but it is pretty cool for sure.

The other thing I remember about that day is the little guy who was new and who was given the responsibility of doing handwork on the bunkers. For some reason Kye and I think Brian Schneider started chasing him all over some hole telling him if they caught him they were gonna kill him but fortunately after awhile they all sort of feel out laughing.

It's really interesting and very educational watching these guys work. It ain't easy----I also remember how hot and dirty it was out there on those mid summer days.

Another salient impression the layman gets out there is how loud it can be sometimes. Did you guys know that about 90% of what those guys produce look and style-wise on the ground has to do with what kind of music they're listening to on their headphones? Yep! It is very easy to see the difference between a Beethoven bunker and a Rap bunker.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 07:49:41 AM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2010, 09:35:14 AM »
Thanks much Ran and Kye - very good interview.

Ran - you continue to have your finger on the pulse of emerging issues in gca. (Maybe it's because you're the one creating that pulse!) Like probably most around here, the thought has been occuring to me lately that what distinguishes top-flight from 'merely' very good architecture is the unity and wholeness in look and playing characteristics (or in Kye's words, the cohesiveness and integration) realized through the work of top-flight shapers.

Kye - you sound like a real solid guy and craftsman. Continued success.  You wrote something that struck me: i.e. "What does require intelligence and talent, however, is being able to create features that are truly indistinguishable from their surrounds and are also integrated and cohesive with the strategy, challenge and beauty of the course, all while comprehending what is challenging, yet fun, for all golfers."  And what struck me is that, while you suggest that your work contributes and ties-into the strategy that the architect has designed, I'd be inclined to say that your work actually helps create that strategy, or at least creates extra layers/dimensions to the strategy -- i..e I think the deceptions and questions that great shaping/intergration creates in the golfer's mind, and the lack of definition/clear cut direction that results from this integration, become as much a 'strategic feature' as a redan green or a centre-line bunker...especially for the average golfer like me.

Thanks again
Peter  
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 09:37:27 AM by PPallotta »

Craig Disher

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Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2010, 02:02:17 PM »
Years ago while Kye was in Virginia I came up short in trying to convince my club to hire him and his associate, Brian Schneider, to renovate the course. Meeting them started my interest in gca. Their approach to the renovation was completely unexpected - focusing on the land form and natural features and how they affected playing strategy was an angle I - or the club - hadn't thought about at all. To further educate me, they suggested I take a look at Annapolis GC, an old and nearly forgotten Charles Banks course.  That these two midwesterners, new to the area, knew so much about an obscure course I hadn't heard about in 30 years just opened the door for me.

I'm looking forward to the rest of the interview. Thanks, Ran, and Kye.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2010, 03:03:17 PM »
We have always thought of Kye as an honorary associate of Renaissance Golf, but it seems that now he is angling to be our p.r. director, too.  ;)  But, I do thank him for writing such nice things about some of my crew who don't get their due, here or elsewhere.

From the time we met, I would say that Kye has always fit in exceptionally well with all of my guys.  He downplays his golfing pedigree to the point where most people fail to make the family connection, although I suspect that letting that photo of himself as a caddie at Augusta out into the public domain will result in it being used over and over again by certain guys on my crew.  Anyway, the one thing I think Kye left unsaid is that while his golfing ability doesn't mean a whole lot for what he does as a shaper, his knowledge of the game and his love of the game ARE a big part of why he is so valuable as a shaper ... and the same for all the rest of my crew.  They may not all have been swinging a golf club in their crib, as I suspect Kye was, but they are far, far from the "dirt guys" most people imagine do that sort of work [and indeed, the kind of guys who do that work for many golf contractors].

I remember discussing 15-20 years ago with someone (maybe Gil Hanse) that I thought the odds of putting a young guy interested in golf [but with no construction experience] on a piece of equipment and having him become a good shaper in time were maybe 1 in 3 ... and I figured those were better odds than trying to teach all of the nuances of golf to a guy who was already a good equipment operator but knew nothing about golf.  I don't know if I've got the numbers correct, but I am pretty sure I have been on the right side of that debate all along, and all of those guys are the reason we've had so much success of late.

I would love to see Kye get his own course to design, now that he's been involved with several good ones in concert with others.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2010, 03:35:01 PM »
Tom D - intuitively your numbers seem right, with the qualifier, I think, that the young person in question has to have a basic talent and (the surest way to develop talent over time) a love of design and construction. In my highschool and university days and on and off after that, I worked a lot in dad's small construction business, and got pretty comfortable on a bobcat (the only machine we had).  But I don't think I could ever become a good shaper: I have an interest in gca and some understanding of golf's nuances, but I have no talent to begin with in the visual/three dimensional realm.  "Talent" is such a hard word to qualify/quantify - but it seems to me that as sure as there are people like Kye who do have it, there are many more people who don't.

Peter  
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 03:45:59 PM by PPallotta »

Jud_T

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Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2010, 03:38:29 PM »
Aside from all the good work he's done, he also gets a bump for the reference to the best film ever made... ;D
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tom_Doak

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Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2010, 04:50:54 PM »
Aside from all the good work he's done, he also gets a bump for the reference to the best film ever made... ;D

Jud:

I did not see Kye mention it, but the official film of Ballyneal was "Napoleon Dynamite".  Brian Schneider told Kye and Bruce they had to see it, and they must have watched it a dozen times while they were sharing a house over there ... they had it on pretty much every time I was there to visit.

Jud_T

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Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2010, 06:49:42 PM »
Not the best film ever made, but a solid staple nonetheless....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Willie_Dow

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Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2010, 08:14:57 PM »
 Thanks Kye for all your input and help for the bunkers at Merion.     

Dunlop_White

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Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2010, 08:41:56 PM »
Great interview Kye! I've enjoyed reading Part 1, and I look forward to Part 2. You know, there are some unsung talents involved in many different facets of golf course architecture today -- and you are certainly one of them. Glad you are getting some fanfare.

Come visit us at Old Town. Meanwhile, I'm forwarding this to Jerry Haas tonight.

Dunlop

Mike_Young

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Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2010, 09:23:06 PM »
Kye,
Good interview...."the dude abides" and Napoleon all in one place....

I spent a couple of days with Kye during Masters week this year....enjoyed the talks....all the best....come see me soon....
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Kye Goalby

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Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2010, 07:17:04 AM »
Just wanted to thank everyone for the nice comments.  I don't have any time to really respond right now as I am actually heading off to do some work. A rarity these days!

Tom Paul,

That "little guy" we were chasing was Kyle Franz, and Schneider did catch him on plenty of other occasions!


Colin Macqueen

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Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2010, 08:05:30 AM »
Gentlemen,
The feature interview with Kye Goalby opens up, to me, elements of golf course design and construction which I had not considered for a moment. It had never struck me that the individuals on bulldozers or bobcats were in fact contributing so much to the spirit, if you like, of a golf course. I use the word spirit deliberately as it seems from the interview that these guys leave an imprint, literally and metaphorically, on the ground that they transform. Again from the interview, as Peter P. alludes to, there is a strong sense of the shapers actually creating fine detail on the run and even possibly tweaking the designers’ holistic view in a way that will impact on the golfer for the life of the layout. These particular chaps seem to have an innate and, to me, wonderful talent which I had not remotely appreciated until reading this interview. I am delighted that they seem to do this whilst still obviously enjoying it as this appears to be translated into superior golf holes.
How good it is that the likes of Tom Doak allow such talents free reign; long may these attitudes prevail.
Congratulations on a fine interview and I am anticipating the next instalment with relish.

The Hielander
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2010, 10:15:26 AM »
Colin,

Don't be mistaken ... 80%  of the shapers in the business are just equipment operators who don't appreciate golf the way Kye is describing.  Kye has probably mentioned half of the really talented guys in the business somewhere in his interview.  I look forward to finding out who the other half are in part two! 

Steve Kline

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Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2010, 11:16:53 AM »
Love part 1 of this interview. I played golf in college and majored in civil engineering (the closest I could get to anything relevant to golf course design at Vanderbilt). Right out of school I went to work for one of the large golf course construction companies. I didn't last long (just 2 weeks - had gotten married 5 months prior, was making very little money with the thought of moving every six months while my wife stayed in Nashville, and spending more time digging in the dirt than actually playing golf was the clincer for me) but I did get to see some of the shapers doing their thing. I could just watch that all day. It never ceased to amaze me what a guy could do with a bulldozer (the guy I watched I worked with Palmer Design for a long, long time I think). He build one bunker where the bunker was barely bigger than bulldozed - how the hell did he get it in there?!? I kept asking myself.

Anyway, this interview brought those memories back. We all see the finished product and think how great this is or that is, but when you think of the raw land and what guys like Kye and the others mentioned in the article do it truly astounds me.

TEPaul

Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2010, 12:09:52 PM »
ColinM:

Your #17 is a very good post. I've said for a long time that you can learn a certain amount about golf course architecture by reading about it and its history and disussing it all on this website or whatever but if you really want to see what it's all about the absolute best MO is to spend as much time on sites with architects, shapers and all the rest as you possibly can.

In my experience walking raw sites with architects is a totally invaluable experience to be able to figure out what is going on in their minds with particularly the routing process as well as what I call the later "designing up" phase. You just can't get that kind of learning curve on here no matter how much they try to explain it. And not just that but it is also totally remarkable to see how very differently some of them work from others and come up with such interesting a varied courses. And in the last few years I've seen this first hand with an architect like Lester George compared to a Bill Coore who know each other well and talk about how differently they work and can even be fascinated by the particular talents the one has that the other may not and vice versa.

And next just watching guys like those shapers work-----guys like Kye Goalby or a Gil Hanse on those various machines is remarkable. If you really want to learn this stuff you pretty much need to spend the time on site. Just watching them conceptualize stuff is a real trip.

Ian Andrew

Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2010, 08:29:23 PM »
What a great interview.

I think the world of Kye. I’ve been lucky enough to spend time with him at Pacific Dunes, Rock Creek and Augusta National.

At Archipalozza we went out with Don and played a second 18. The three of us talked about tie-ins, lines found in nature and borrowed scenery for three hours. It was a wonderful chance to really get to know two great guys with so much passion for the art.

At Augusta, while we weren’t drooling over the contours of the 14th green, we talked about playing freedoms, space, scale, width and recollected that crazy frickin’ bar he took me too on Wednesday night. What were you thinking! It was fun to walk the course and share the thoughts I was thinking and listen to his thoughts about what he saw and admired. It really added to the week.

At Rock Creek it was the first evening in particular. It was spent with many of Tom’s guys talking about different aspects of Rock Creek, other projects they had all worked on, and the latest lesson that opened their eyes. We all talked about grassing lines, from blurring the edges, to hiding the ones you don’t want to see, to playing aspects. That evening was an education for me.

I can’t think of many people I’ve enjoyed just hanging out with. I think the interview brings a lot of that personality out to be enjoyed.

Mark_F

Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2010, 11:37:35 PM »
...but if you really want to see what it's all about the absolute best MO is to spend as much time on sites with architects, shapers and all the rest as you possibly can.

In my experience walking raw sites with architects is a totally invaluable experience to be able to figure out what is going on in their minds

Interesting thought, Tom, especially as Kye says in his interview:

"I can remember him talking about the favorite holes he has designed being ones that even he can’t figure out the best way to play. This seems to be the ultimate freedom in golf design."

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2010, 04:23:43 PM »
Kye,

I hope part 2 has a few questions about growing up around Jay Farrar and Jeff Tweedy, watchin' early Uncle Tupelo gigs  ;)

Best,
jeffmingay.com

George Pazin

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Re: Part I of Kye Goalby Feature Interview is now posted
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2010, 04:27:19 PM »
Another terrific interview, thanks Ran and Kye.

I remember when Kye used to post more frequently on here. While his posts are missed, it's nice to see him doing so well.

Looking forward to part II...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

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