[jonathan_becker]

George,

I took Mac's remarks in regards to "your ideal course yardage" and was trying to find a way for it to work for me.  The formula worked for his game this time, but I don't think it's a good representation of mine. 

But like in your previous post, I would agree that the formula isn't accurate.  It needs to work for everyone for it to be valid.  I'm supposed to play from 8,000 yards which is longer than any PGA Tour event in the history of the game, but my 6700 yard home course from the absolute tips causes me enough trouble on a regular basis.  There are too many other variables involved. 

If I were Spicoli, I would say "All I need is some tasty 7200 yards, a cool firm and fast, and I'm fine!" 

[George Pazin]

If I were Spicoli, I would say "All I need is some tasty 7200 yards, a cool firm and fast, and I'm fine!" 

I'd say "All I need is some tasty waves (in the fairways and greens) and I'm fine!"

I understand what Mac is trying to say, I'm simply saying it's not just fruitless, I think it's a very damaging way of thinking about golf. Homogenization is the logical end result of formulas applied to golf.

[Phil McDade]

George:

Although I tend to agree with you, I think the formula is an attempt to get at the "most comfortable" playing yardage for any given player for their length. For me, anything beyond about 6,500 yards these days gets to be one long slog, where I'm hitting fairway wood after fairway wood on second shots, which soon becomes no fun. For me, the formula works for the driver (about 6,200 yards -- a yardage I'm real comfortable with) but a bit on the short side for a 5-iron.

[George Pazin]

George:

Although I tend to agree with you, I think the formula is an attempt to get at the "most comfortable" playing yardage for any given player for their length.

Allow me to illustrate my point thusly:

On my home course, they could stretch it to 7500 yards and it wouldn't much affect my score.

On any Pete Dye course, I have to play the shortest tees available and tee off with 7 irons all day long to not lose 1,000 golf balls.

 

To make the formula work, you'd have to have so many tweaks depending on the type of golfer and the type of course that it would just make the whole thing silly.

Matt's numbers probably work better than most formulas for most golfers. And I am generally required to disagree with Matt, by golfclubtlas bylaws...

[Matt_Ward]

George:

Let's not start a new trend now -- agreeing.

Guys:

When people talk about distance they fail to recognize what I said previously ...

*How far can they consistently hit their respective clubs

*How far can they carry their driver consistently.

Plenty of yarns are spun in the 19th hole about how far someone hit's it -- but likely it's tied to hard ground, elevation and / or wind aided or all of the above.

Most guys have more than they can handle at 6,500 yards -- it's the ego that often outweighs their golf game for the desire to tackle "all of the course."

[Phil McDade]

On any Pete Dye course, I have to play the shortest tees available and tee off with 7 irons all day long to not lose 1,000 golf balls.

 

Agreed! One reason I'm not a big fan of Dye's work here in Wisconsin, which makes me a definite minority!

[Pete Lavallee]

I think that the formula is trying to give the 280 driver the same kind of experience the 220 driver gets; hitting a variety of irons and yes hybrids and maybe a wood into par 4's and 3's and making par 5's play as 3 shot holes, or making them difficult to reach in 2. Do these people not enjoy showcasing their considerable skills with every club in the bag? Why no, they like hitting wedge into every par 4 and routinely reaching par 5's with their mid irons; and frankly who wouldn't!

[Garland Bayley]

Mac,

To actually answer your last question, yes, I probably would need a longer course to get the same experience as yourself.  But you saw me make plenty of mistakes with short irons and missed scoring opportunities.

Jonathan,

You sound like me. No good drive goes unpunished!
'Cept you are longer and better looking.

[Mac Plumart]

I find this thread really good for some reason.  Great points all the way around.

Why would we want the same experience?  I don't know.  Maybe we don't.  I just have in the back of my mind old timers playing courses with hickories and gutties and then the Max Behr analysis in Scott Macpherson's book talking about how long a course needs to be to be able to compare players of yesteryear with players of today regarding driving ability and course experience.  However, maybe that is the wrong way to think about it. 

Another reason was touched on a few posts ago...I have a friend who is a big time golfer (+3/+4 handicap) and he always raves about a course that allows him to hit 6 iron into greens rather than wedges and the like.  He thinks it is fun.  So again, I could be wrong and off base...but he seems to enjoy that experience...hence my posts.

I find the thread interesting and I think you all made good points...and entertaining ones as well!!   

[George Pazin]

Why would we want the same experience?  I don't know.  Maybe we don't.  I just have in the back of my mind old timers playing courses with hickories and gutties and then the Max Behr analysis in Scott Macpherson's book talking about how long a course needs to be to be able to compare players of yesteryear with players of today regarding driving ability and course experience.  However, maybe that is the wrong way to think about it.

When I think about the old writing, I think about how much emphasis there was on the Tiger and the Hare - ie. two totally different golfers being able to conquer a hole in different ways; to me, that's a big part of what is missing from today's theories.

Another reason was touched on a few posts ago...I have a friend who is a big time golfer (+3/+4 handicap) and he always raves about a course that allows him to hit 6 iron into greens rather than wedges and the like.  He thinks it is fun.  So again, I could be wrong and off base...but he seems to enjoy that experience...hence my posts.

Maybe he should simply play with older equipment. If he's a tournament golfer (which he likely is, at that handicap level), I can see why he wouldn't, but otherwise I think he'd have more fun and a better appreciation of the game.

At any rate, I think it's tilting at windmills - longer golfers are simply longer, not necessarily better. Trying to manipulate tees to achieve similar experiences strikes me as a fool's errand. Might as well put in different tees and greens for lefties...

[Garland Bayley]

I would posit that stretching the golf course to provide the same experience only works for par 3 courses.

This is why I have argued that building five or six sets of tees is just adding useless extra expense to the course. George and I would argue that randomly placing bunkers is a better way to provide the "same experience" than extending courses and adding tees.

You know Brent is shorter than Jonathan with all of his clubs don't you?

[Mark Smolens]

To echo Mr. P's last point, Patrick H. had no trouble hitting his persimmon driver at Lost Dunes two weekends ago. While Mr. H might not have that handicap at this point, he can certainly golf his ball to a level I can only aspire to. . .

[John Moore II]

My driver carry distance equates to a shade under 8,000 yards.  That's way too long!!

My 6 iron carry distance comes out almost perfectly to 64% though.

You know, I said that before, but I just worked it out, if I hit all my different irons into a par 4, plus one par 4 where I have to approach with 3 wood, then 4 representative distances for par 3's and par 5's, it does come out to over 8000 yards, like 8200 actually. So, maybe this formula does have merit, but while that yardage might be ideal, its doubtful it will be a whole lot of fun for me. Thats a real beast of a course.

[Garland Bayley]

My driver carry distance equates to a shade under 8,000 yards.  That's way too long!!

My 6 iron carry distance comes out almost perfectly to 64% though.

You know, I said that before, but I just worked it out, if I hit all my different irons into a par 4, plus one par 4 where I have to approach with 3 wood, then 4 representative distances for par 3's and par 5's, it does come out to over 8000 yards, like 8200 actually. So, maybe this formula does have merit, but while that yardage might be ideal, its doubtful it will be a whole lot of fun for me. Thats a real beast of a course.

Hey (not so) Stud. Any course is a beast of a course for us high handicappers. Get over it!
 

[John Moore II]

My driver carry distance equates to a shade under 8,000 yards.  That's way too long!!

My 6 iron carry distance comes out almost perfectly to 64% though.

You know, I said that before, but I just worked it out, if I hit all my different irons into a par 4, plus one par 4 where I have to approach with 3 wood, then 4 representative distances for par 3's and par 5's, it does come out to over 8000 yards, like 8200 actually. So, maybe this formula does have merit, but while that yardage might be ideal, its doubtful it will be a whole lot of fun for me. Thats a real beast of a course.

Hey (not so) Stud. Any course is a beast of a course for us high handicappers. Get over it!
 

Hey now, hey now. First, I changed that name as part of a joke with some friends last night. So...
And second, I can be challenged plenty by 7000 yard courses. Anyone who says 8200 is ideal for me or anyone else, I just don't know what to say.

And by the way, what is your average driver distance? Work through the formula and see if you are playing a course too long.

[Mac Plumart]

John...

I don't know your game or your handicap...but I'd bet that if you got together with some other long hitters/low to mid handicappers and played a course from 8,000 yards, you'd hold your own at a minimum.  And I'd bet for a change of pace, it would be real fun.  Kind of like me playing my hickories...a fun change of pace and a different challenge.

Maybe that is why I like this thread so much.  So many different thoughts on the game, new ideas, etc.

Cool stuff!

[John Moore II]

John...

I don't know your game or your handicap...but I'd bet that if you got together with some other long hitters/low to mid handicappers and played a course from 8,000 yards, you'd hold your own at a minimum.  And I'd bet for a change of pace, it would be real fun.  Kind of like me playing my hickories...a fun change of pace and a different challenge.

Maybe that is why I like this thread so much.  So many different thoughts on the game, new ideas, etc.

Cool stuff!

You know, you are right, it would be a fun change of pace, that is for sure. But I really am not sure I could play a course that long every day. Thats just a pure best of a golf course. And on that same note, a 5500 yard course can be a fun change of pace, but again, one that would tire over time. You're actually making me want to play The Judge on the RTJ Trail, I hear its in the neighborhood of 7800 yards or something.

[Mac Plumart]

What do you know...I'm planning on hitting the RTJ Trail this fall/early winter.  Maybe we can get a crew together to make it a GCA deal.  Maybe you, Mr. Becker (if we can convince him to join us), and Mr. Eric Smith and his magical 2 wood can hit from the tips and I'll try one tee up from you guys and any other shorty's who want to join us can play the same tees as me.  That trail is very affordable and sounds like a lot of fun.  Just a thought for later in the year!

[John Moore II]

What do you know...I'm planning on hitting the RTJ Trail this fall/early winter.  Maybe we can get a crew together to make it a GCA deal.  Maybe you, Mr. Becker (if we can convince him to join us), and Mr. Eric Smith and his magical 2 wood can hit from the tips and I'll try one tee up from you guys and any other shorty's who want to join us can play the same tees as me.  That trail is very affordable and sounds like a lot of fun.  Just a thought for later in the year!

I might be able to work that, but I am not sure. I might be deployed then, or I might be home (hopefully) tending to another fairly significant personal event. I was actually thinking of playing fairly shortly here. Not sure if I can work it though. But let me know if that is something you plan to do, I will see what I can work out, though its very doubtful.

[Jason Connor]

That's absurd.  By that definition anyone who averages 250 (which isn't that far with today's technology) should be playing a 7000 yard course.

And people complain about slow play now!

[Garland Bayley]

...
And by the way, what is your average driver distance? Work through the formula and see if you are playing a course too long.

A conservative estimate of my average distance suggests 6440. My course is under 6000. I think I'm OK on that aspect.

[Garland Bayley]

...I changed that name as part of a joke with some friends last night. So...
...

Ben Sims got on the website and continually addressed me as Bayley. So for his benefit, I changed mine to Bayley R. Garland. You know, like Toys R Us. Some people said disparaging things about me trying to be funny, so I changed it back. I was not trying to be disparaging, just insulting.

[John Moore II]

That's absurd.  By that definition anyone who averages 250 (which isn't that far with today's technology) should be playing a 7000 yard course.

And people complain about slow play now!

Well, actually according to the USGA, a person who hits the ball (scratch player) 250 yards aught to be able to play a course in the neighborhood of 8000 yards (take the maximum hole lengths and multiply them out) and still be able to reach every green in regulation. OK, fine, he has to hit driver to every par 3 and every other hole is approached with a 3 wood, but whatever. I could mathematically prove you wrong another way too by using that 64% 6 iron formula and working other club distances out of that. However, both of these are based on a low handicap player. I have met some scratch players who only hit the ball 250, met one at my old club who only hit it about 230 with the driver. Certainly for a 25 handicap that hits the ball 250 its a pointless formula, but the 25 handicap aught to have sense enough to know that.

These ideal course distances are a real myth, I think. It all depends on a given player. Some people are stronger in areas that others. Some guys might not be able to hit the ball a long way, but they have real good short games and could play a course slightly longer than one of these "ideal." And in that same way, another guy might be able to hit the ball long, but not be very accurate with the irons or something like that. In all reality, the ideal course yardage for a given person is whatever he or she thinks it is. I can certainly say that 8,000 yards is not my ideal yardage.

[Ken Moum]

Place 80% of the men who play the game today at a max of 6,500 yards and they'd likely be quite content.

Few women should play a layout that's more than 6,200 yards. Both yardages assume sea level altitude.

I assume you mean that most of them should play a course that shorter than those numbers.  Because if you mean that 80% of men would comfortable at 6,500 yards, you need to get out and play with more "regular' golfers

I play with a fairly broad spectrum of adult males, ranging from scratch to 25 handicappers, and ages from 14 to 80, and there are no more than 10% of them who can play 6,500 yards and enjoy the course.

I am a 62-year-old 12 index which puts me above average for scoring ability. I hit it about 210 off the tee, and can manage no more than 165 with the club that would be my five iron (a 30* eleven wood), so any hole over about 375 ends up being two fairway woods.

My wife is a 14 handicap, and has been in the top 10% of women at every club she's played, and she HATES playing anything over 5,200 yards.

[Brent Hutto]

I play with a fairly broad spectrum of adult males, ranging from scratch to 25 handicappers, and ages from 14 to 80, and there are no more than 10% of them who can play 6,500 yards and enjoy the course.

I am a 62-year-old 12 index which puts me above average for scoring ability. I hit it about 210 off the tee, and can manage no more than 165 with the club that would be my five iron (a 30* eleven wood), so any hole over about 375 ends up being two fairway woods.

Ken,

What is your most comfortable course length, then?

I'm guessing you'll say somewhere around 6,100-6,250 yards (Par 72) because that's where I'm happiest and I hit it about the same as you (couple yards less with the irons, couple yards more with the driver, five strokes higher handicap). Our course is just a hair under 6,200 and distance is not a problem when it's playing firm in the summer but with winter temps and wet fairways it's a bit too much for comfort.

The formula would put us around 5,900-6,000 but I'm comfortable slightly longer than that as long as the ball isn't plugging in the fairways.

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