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Adam Clayman

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Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« on: April 26, 2010, 09:38:26 PM »
The Saddleworth thread and the Jim Urbina's question on another thread got me to wondering.

Any ideas on how to start such a thing? (I'm shoot'in from the hip here)

What criteria would work best?

Theory?

Anecdotal?

Style of design?

Hopefully some of the empirical experts can edit any suggested criteria?

The courses I have the most fun on are the ones that allow for bounce and roll. Both through design and maintenance. The fun is amplified if the shots I play, are of my own invention. And their result, good or bad, could've ended up completely different, save for one or two variables that affected the balls outcome, while it was in the air, or, once it returned to earth.


What say you?

P.s. I'm resisting listing specific courses, thinking that a rating needs to be universal, so it applies to every course. Rihc Goodales Richelin scale might be one avenue to consider. That's a 3 star system, for those who don't know.  
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 09:43:46 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2010, 09:46:14 PM »
I would add in the following...

Tee time intervals/crowdedness

Width of fairways and/or density of rough/trees

Size of greens (could be big or small perhaps ideally a variety of each)

Water hazards (or lack there of) and/or quality use of them

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2010, 09:50:48 PM »
Are you trying to create a mathematical formula for how to rate architecture in terms of fun?

How do you come up with procedure to break down the imagination for people like Mike Stranz, the randomness of St. Andrews, Pete Dye's head games, add the sum of diagonal hazards, and then multiply by a stimpmeter reading?

... my opinion, cant be done.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2010, 09:51:07 PM »
How about lost ball quota, and match vs. Medal play venue, average wind speed and fairway stimp?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2010, 10:04:18 PM »
Jaeger…

Of course a mathematical equation can be discovered/derived to model/predict the “fun” a golf course can provide each and every golfer.  First, we will need to model each and every golfer’s utility function in the context of fun on a golf course.  But after that, all we need to do is an MVA.

And, as we all know, a multivariate analysis (MVA) involves observation and analysis of more than one statistical variable at a time (like tee time intervals, width of fairways and the like). In design and analysis, the technique of MVA is used to perform trade studies across multiple dimensions while taking into account the effects of all variables on the responses of interest.  So, alas we will not only be able to predict the “fun” of a given course which is already designed, but we will also be able to provide architects with a blueprint of our formula to assist them with building “fun” courses prior to them actually breaking ground.  It will be wonderful!!!

Think about it, this is exactly the kind of thing the mortgage gurus did with the sub-prime mortgages and CDO’s and look how well that worked out!!!   :)
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jim Colton

Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2010, 10:06:40 PM »
Adam,

  (Not surprisingly), I think the way to do it is numerically.  Have players rank or score courses they've played solely on a 'fun' scale, using whatever inherent characteristics encompass fun for the given golfer.  Then crunch the numbers into a composite fun rating that is the collective view of the panelists.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2010, 10:13:25 PM »
If we start down the path of assimilating all of the collective views (as Jim suggests), resistance will be futile!




Ugh!  My apologies...long day...good night!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2010, 10:17:20 PM »
FUN...........

Is an emotional, not a mathematical expression.

Like "obscenity", you know it when you have it. ;D

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2010, 10:21:34 PM »
How about we all try to get laid instead?  That's fun.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2010, 10:49:37 PM »
How about we all try to get laid instead?  That's fun.


Ronald,

If you are married to a rich woman; it could be the hardest money you'll ever make. >:(


Bob

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2010, 10:54:51 PM »
All right, I'll make amends...I had loads of fun at the following courses...

Bandon Dunes, OR
Golf Club of Dublin, OH
St. Andrews New Course, SCOTLAND
Buck Hill Falls, PA
Victoria Hills, FL

In none of the situations did the pairings have anything to do with the enjoyment.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2010, 11:14:45 PM »
Adam,
Have you read my essay in GAV5 lately? ....
http://www.mnuzzo.com/pdf/GAV5.pdf
And Tom Dunne's comments...
http://out-and-back.net/?p=1369

The easiest way to do it is to find the fun first golfers first, and list their favorite courses.
i.e.  You, Huckaby, Pazin are in, Ward and Duran are out.

A fun golfer is one who puts fun over challenge and beauty - not that all three aren't important to golf, but we aren't talking about golf - we're talking about our flavor of golf.

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2010, 11:17:03 PM »
I'm not limiting the suggestions.

It is probably futile, or someone would've come up with it already. But, let's explore it anyway.

Jim, I think it's important to try to differentiate where players have fun because of the architecture. Versus, when they have fun because of outside factors like who they played with or how they played.

Maybe Tom Huckaby's notion of how the CR and slope rating correlate is a good place to start? Tom?

Mike, Thanx. I will read them. Very funny.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2010, 12:47:00 AM »
With apologies to Tom Doak, I propose the following "Fun Scale" 

0-A course so difficult and penal that it may poison you against golf forever.  Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their attempt to attract people who wanted to enjoy themselves, only to be revealed on repeated play as having been built by sadists for masochists.

1-A punishing golf course, betraying clear malice toward golfers on the part of the developer. Avoid even if you're desperate for a game.

2-A mediocre golf course with too much water in play, but nothing really horrible.

3-A typical, boring or aggravating course that relies too heavily on water and trees to create challenges and to limit the player’s ability to recover from a mis-played shot.

4-Amusing course, with a couple of truly fun holes among the 18.

5-Above average diversion, but the middle of my scale. A good course to choose if you’re in the vicinity and looking for a game, but don’t go out of your way expecting to be bowled over by the good times.

6-Sporty course that will entice you to think and play a variety of shots, definitely would be the source of a fun game if you’re in town, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn’t disappoint you.

Note: all courses ranked 7 or above on the Fun Scale must be enjoyable walks for golfers of average health.

7-A frolic, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find many interesting holes that engage the mind and stimulate creativity. 

8-One of the most delightful courses in its region and worth a special trip to see. Could have a few ponds and trees, but these won’t seriously interfere with the merriment, and it will make up for them with something really memorable.  The golfer finishes his round with a mixed feeling of sadness and happiness.

9- One of the most pleasurable outings a golfer can experience.   Has unusual holes that offer players of modest ability numerous ways to have a relaxing game--At the same time these outstanding holes challenge the better player to make shots and memories that will fill his golf storybook with gleeful tales he’ll celebrate later with kindred spirits over a pleasing libation.  Widely hailed as "Fun" by golfers who've played it for many years.

10-Let’s play again, right after lunch with a good claret.

Please feel free to suggest edits, but only if you can think of more synonyms for "fun."  :)

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2010, 02:43:06 AM »
Nice list Eric...

In my opinion, the idea of rating "fun" is almost contradictory...

That said, if it was generated and publicised officially from this site... and marketed well so that people in the real golfing world actually talked about it, it could do a lot of good...

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2010, 04:18:01 AM »
Most of the most fun courses I have played have some element of blindness.  I'm not saying that's necessary but it certainly doesn't hurt.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2010, 04:27:38 AM »
To me, fun naturally encompasses challenge, difficulty, funk and beauty.   Only my emphasis leans more toward challenge, funk and beauty (feel good factor) and away from difficulty.  In other words, for the difficulty to seriously raise its head it is down to the weather much more than the design.  I would also say that the most fun courses are those which can be enjoyed by all standards of golfers.  The touring pro down to the 28 capper should be hitting shots where they can't help but smile.  Finally, I think affordability plays a role in the feel good factor that fun courses provide.  We all feel better when we think we had a good deal.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 04:41:33 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Stan Dodd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2010, 05:27:07 AM »
Interesting thread.  I was just out for a cycle this morning and watched 7 players come through holes 1 and 2 at Royal Dornoch.
2 players did not finish the 1st and 3 players did not finish the 2nd.  Now I think Dornoch is fun, but it is not fun to not complete a hole and to have an X on your card after 2 holes does not make for a fun round IMHO.
Without evaluating skill levels of the golfers observed were they overmatched and hence make Dornoch fall into  one of the not fun categories listed above?

Gary_Nelson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2010, 06:58:22 AM »
Could the fun rating be independent of one's skill level?  What may be fun for a low handicapper (ie. severely undulating greens) may be the  opposite of fun for the guy shooting 100.


Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2010, 07:11:40 AM »
Could the fun rating be independent of one's skill level?  What may be fun for a low handicapper (ie. severely undulating greens) may be the  opposite of fun for the guy shooting 100.


I think severely undulating greens at an appropriate speed will be fun for anyone.  Have you ever been to the Himalayas?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

jonathan_becker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2010, 07:17:20 AM »
Eric T,

Based on your proposed scale, I give Stone Eagle a 10.

Simply stated, it was one of the greatest days of fun I've ever had playing golf.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2010, 07:44:34 AM »
For me - fun on a golf course is similar to music I enjoy.  There needs to be some surprises - but the surprises cannot be so unexpected that the experience becomes discordant.  No top 40.  But no modern music either (as in modern "classical" music).

Anthony Gray

Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2010, 07:56:18 AM »


   Cruden Bay



Brett_Morrissy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2010, 08:30:33 AM »
North Berwick for me - out of the ordinary, many seem to try and copy it the fun elements, but unable to capture the special something that makes it unique.

Barnbougle Dunes - let me go back out again everytime.

My home course - with my great golfing mates, good weather, a few birdies, a few bogies. lots of banter.

@theflatsticker

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's start a GCA Fun Rating?
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2010, 08:57:46 AM »
To me, fun naturally encompasses challenge, difficulty, funk and beauty.  

Pithy and perfect about golf and many other things in life.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

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