[Bill Brightly]

After playing golf in the UK for four months, I would say that the course rankings for this region are nothing but an organization's confident yet inaccurate opinion. 

Ironically, that is a rather confident opinion (however accurate it may be) that you are offering, especially if cultivated after a whole 4 months playing here.

Martin,

How my months must the lad play before he can form his opinions?

[Martin Toal]

After playing golf in the UK for four months, I would say that the course rankings for this region are nothing but an organization's confident yet inaccurate opinion. 

Ironically, that is a rather confident opinion (however accurate it may be) that you are offering, especially if cultivated after a whole 4 months playing here.

Martin,

How my months must the lad play before he can form his opinions?

No answer, except the unshakeable assuredness of his opinion was underscored by that justification, which I found amusing. As well as knowing the courses in that time, he also learned to see into the minds of the organisations offering contrary opinions to his.

[Mark Pearce]

Martin,

Are you suggesting that JNC is wrong, and that any of those sets of rankings are/is even reasonably accurate?  If so, which one(s)?

[Sean_A]

In a bid to get away from the pavement of obvious choices in Ireland I nominate a trio of #5s. 

First, #5 of Portrush Valley Links.  It is difficult for me to separate this hole from #6 because I think of them as a pair.  In any case, the 5th of the Valley is one of the most thought provoking holes I know of.





#5 of Enniscrone sort of reminds me of Foxy in how it turns right around a dune jutting into the fairway and has a raised green.  The 5th has the added element of a two-tier green swinging around a mound.



Finally, the wide open and crazy 5th at Strandhill.  The fairway is so wide it is very awkward to pick a driving line.  The added element of the drive being seriously downhill encourages golfers to try and head over a vast area of junk to reach this par 5 in two.  Just a teaser photo..


Ciao   

[Martin Toal]

Martin,

Are you suggesting that JNC is wrong, and that any of those sets of rankings are/is even reasonably accurate?  If so, which one(s)?

I am suggesting that anyone who says that they are right and everybody else is wrong should be called on it, and the burden of proof lies with the naysayer.

[JNC Lyon]

Martin,

Are you suggesting that JNC is wrong, and that any of those sets of rankings are/is even reasonably accurate?  If so, which one(s)?

I am suggesting that anyone who says that they are right and everybody else is wrong should be called on it, and the burden of proof lies with the naysayer.

Why would I bother posting or stating my opinion if I didn't believe it was correct?  I'm not suggesting that I am right and everyone else is wrong.  It seems that I might have a few people that agree with me here.  I am simply suggesting that accepting the subjective rankings from a few magazines as absolute truth is ridiculous.  Furthermore, using these rankings as proof that your golf course is great is a poor way to argue your point.  Would you not agree with me on that?

[Martin Toal]

Martin,

Are you suggesting that JNC is wrong, and that any of those sets of rankings are/is even reasonably accurate?  If so, which one(s)?

I am suggesting that anyone who says that they are right and everybody else is wrong should be called on it, and the burden of proof lies with the naysayer.

Why would I bother posting or stating my opinion if I didn't believe it was correct?  I'm not suggesting that I am right and everyone else is wrong.  It seems that I might have a few people that agree with me here.  I am simply suggesting that accepting the subjective rankings from a few magazines as absolute truth is ridiculous.  Furthermore, using these rankings as proof that your golf course is great is a poor way to argue your point.  Would you not agree with me on that?

But that is not what you said. You said that:

After playing golf in the UK for four months, I would say that the course rankings for this region are nothing but an organization's confident yet inaccurate opinion.

That reads as a blanket dismissal of the course rankings not just for this course, but for the region and reads very much like you are suggesting you are right and the course rankings are wrong. I have been playing golf in the UK and Ireland, including a lot of these rated courses in varying conditions and climate, for 30 years and would not feel qualified to make that assertion.

The point that subjective rankings (are there any other sort?) are the absolute truth is a very different point and one which we would agree with. I would say, however, that the rankings from reputable golf magazines are not far wrong with their general message. One could argue is the course in 20th position should be 15th or vice versa, and occasionally that a course is highly under or over-rated, but taken in broad strokes, I think they are probably pretty close to the general consensus.

So, in that regard, most rankings disagree with you wrt TEC. 

[Rory Connaughton]

Sean:

  I agree with you regarding no. 5 Enniscrone. A very under rated hole.  It also varies greatly depending on the tee you play from as the angle toward the fairway bunkers change considerably if you move back and right to the medal tee.

[JNC Lyon]

Martin,

I guess I am suggesting that the course rankings are wrong.  My individual rankings might not be completely 'correct.'  However, I feel that my rankings, combined with the rankings of many others who are well-informed about golf course architecture, can refute the idea that these rankings are somehow 'official' or Truth with a capital T.  These rankings may contain some great golf courses.  However, they leave out many, many deserving courses and miss the point of seeing golf courses.  They lead people to play only certain golf courses.  Indeed, they tend to leave one specific type of golf course; those that are not considered 'great tests' for 1% of golfers.

I would say that after my short tour of golf courses in the British Isles, I can dismiss rankings as indicators of what courses are better, which courses are more enjoyable, and which courses I prefer.  I would rather rely on the opinions of golfers on this website and golfers that I trust regarding architecture than on magazine rankings.  Wouldn't you agree?

I wouldn't argue that the rankings disagree with me about TEC.  That is obviously true.  However, I value my own judgment and the judgment of others who are well-versed in golf course architecture over the judgment of those rankings.

[Melvyn Morrow]

And On the Eighth Day He Created His own Rankings saying to the masses

“I would say that after my short tour of golf courses in the British Isles, I can dismiss rankings as indicators of what courses are better, which courses are more enjoyable, and which courses I prefer.”   

And so it came to pass that in the mind of Lyon, JNC sat upon his throne overlooking his courses content that he had destroyed all other rankings but his own, all hail  ‘JNC The Destroyer’

OK, you can wake up now, don’t cry it was only a dream – what, you are crying because it WAS only a dream, you are not the great destroyer of rankings, don’t worry when you grow up, one day you may become a golf magazine editor and be able to do your own, but you must be able to walk before you can undertake Rankings.  Go on, go back to sleep but no more Ranking dreams.

And so it came to pass that the young JNC entered the real world, believing the C in his name JNC stands for Conan (The Destroyer - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyhsRwnmvVQ ).

Morning  JNC hope you slept well last night

Melvyn

[Martin Toal]

Martin,

I guess I am suggesting that the course rankings are wrong.  My individual rankings might not be completely 'correct.'  However, I feel that my rankings, combined with the rankings of many others who are well-informed about golf course architecture, can refute the idea that these rankings are somehow 'official' or Truth with a capital T.  These rankings may contain some great golf courses.  However, they leave out many, many deserving courses and miss the point of seeing golf courses.  They lead people to play only certain golf courses.  Indeed, they tend to leave one specific type of golf course; those that are not considered 'great tests' for 1% of golfers.

I would say that after my short tour of golf courses in the British Isles, I can dismiss rankings as indicators of what courses are better, which courses are more enjoyable, and which courses I prefer.  I would rather rely on the opinions of golfers on this website and golfers that I trust regarding architecture than on magazine rankings.  Wouldn't you agree?

I wouldn't argue that the rankings disagree with me about TEC.  That is obviously true.  However, I value my own judgment and the judgment of others who are well-versed in golf course architecture over the judgment of those rankings.

Preferring the opinion of those who agree with you is always seductive, but I would not necessarily mistrust magazine rankings. It depends on the magazine, but more importantly, I like golf courses for a variety of reasons other than architecture, which is a narrow aspect of what one looks for in golf, and perhaps the source of this problem. I played Huntercombe last year, a course whose architecture is spoken of around here in hushed reverent tones. In truth, I didn't find it all that great. I prefer Bearwood Lakes, a Johnny Come lately brash upstart with no pedigree (according to some).

The Golf World (UK) rankings for the UK and I are attached. I would not have a great deal of dispute with these, particularly at the top end. If they have chosen a particular type of course suited to better players, isn't that exactly what you would expect?

Also, how do US rankings differ? Augusta, Pine Valley, NGLA, Merion, Cypress Point, Pebble Beach, Shinnecock, Bethpage - all courses for the average player? The average player can't even get on them, let alone play them (BP, and for those with money, PB, excepted).

Seems to me the rankings are rather similar between the US and UK, except the UK courses are mostly (although not Loch Lomond and a few others) playable by all.

[Martin Toal]

Can't attach the rest of the document due to site limits, but the whole list can be seen here:

http://www.todaysgolfer.co.uk/Golf/courses/Top-100-Golf-Courses/The-best-UK-golf-courses-from-Todays-Golfer/

[Carl Nichols]

Mr. Ruddy-
I would still be interested in your take on my questions.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean,

That approach to No.5 at Strandhill looks like a blast... It's a course I still haven't visited but must one day soon...

Unfortunately, Pat Ruddy wasn't able to contribute to this piece... But he was the first architect that I searched out to ask... That in itself should give some idea of the esteem that he is held within Ireland, regardless of the differing opinions on here...

Matthew Mollica, when you showed that pre-construction photo of Lost Farms to highlight flat duneland in between sandhills, that to me looks like a dune slack which will only occur around the water table level... An example of this at The European Club would be the land that the 7th hole lies on... I don't know how much "flattening" out of the land Pat did on some of the higher holes but I tend to be in the Jack Marr camp - what does it matter?... We all play the course... and we like some things and we dislike others... But it's the finished product we rate in our heads, not the process of how it came to be...

To move away from that subject, here's another description from the article... Tom MacKenzie on the 3rd at Baltray:

Baltray is one of my favourite courses, not just in Ireland but anywhere. It is not a course with huge dunes lining the fairways like Ballybunion, nor is it renowned as being brutally hard as Portmarnock perhaps is. The reason for liking it so much is the quality of the detailed design, the legacy of Tom Simpson. He is one of the great golf course architects whose handiwork can also be seen at Carlow and Ballybunion amongst others.

I have previously cited the 14th as one of the finest short par fours but someone beat me to it for this feature. In any case, it is good to think about alternatives. The 5th was considered but, in the end, I have opted for the 3rd, which some may find a little strange. I selected it because whenever I have played it, I have always wanted to walk back to the tee and play it again immediately. It is full of options and variations. Furthermore, the green is one where I could while away an hour on a summer’s evening just trying different things. It is a fairly severe green, but this challenge really shapes how the hole plays.

For those who don’t know it, the hole is a mid-length par five, measuring 544 yards. Holes of this length, when well designed, should mess with the golfers’ minds and this one certainly does. The design is so clever for two reasons. It is a brilliant example of how visibility can and should be used in the strategy of the hole and the long, narrow and tilted green is almost impossible to hold from the right and much more receptive from the left.

Simpson’s play with visibility centres on a ridge that lies about 40 yards short of the green. A marker shows where the green is and, for those in range, a decision has to be made on whether to risk the blind shot to the narrow green, as missing the green left or right leaves a nervous recovery shot. In some cases, the best option is to play what feels like a long way left to where there is a notch in the ridge. From here, the green is visible making the pitch much easier and the angle of the green also favours this as the line of attack.

This is a remarkably simple design, but it just does what good holes should do. It tantalises, infuriates and excites all at the same time. If you have any sort of interest in golf course architecture, then ink Baltray into the list of courses to play and make sure that you have time to really study the details. The whole course is a masterclass in design.

[Duncan Betts]

Mr Arble,

Those pics of Portrush sure do look flat in the pictures!

 

[Bill_McBride]

Mr Arble,

Those pics of Portrush sure do look flat in the pictures!

 

There's very little flat land on the Valley, and not much on the Dunluce.

If you're talking about Valley #5 above, look again, lots of contour.

[Duncan Betts]

I was being facetious Mr. McBride.

In my experience, pictures always tend to flatten out a golf course and with the discussions within this thread, I thought it worthy to point this fact out.

[Bill_McBride]

I was being facetious Mr. McBride.

In my experience, pictures always tend to flatten out a golf course and with the discussions within this thread, I thought it worthy to point this fact out.

Sorry, I thought you were being serious!

I do love that hole. 

[Jack_Marr]

In a bid to get away from the pavement of obvious choices in Ireland I nominate a trio of #5s. 

First, #5 of Portrush Valley Links.  It is difficult for me to separate this hole from #6 because I think of them as a pair.  In any case, the 5th of the Valley is one of the most thought provoking holes I know of.





#5 of Enniscrone sort of reminds me of Foxy in how it turns right around a dune jutting into the fairway and has a raised green.  The 5th has the added element of a two-tier green swinging around a mound.



Finally, the wide open and crazy 5th at Strandhill.  The fairway is so wide it is very awkward to pick a driving line.  The added element of the drive being seriously downhill encourages golfers to try and head over a vast area of junk to reach this par 5 in two.  Just a teaser photo..


Ciao   

Sean, I love that hole in Strandhill. Reminds me of the moguls in skiing... Some lovely holes in a very tight course at Strandhill.

One of my favourite holes in Ireland is also from Enniscrone. I can't remmeber which one, but it plays across the dunes, rather than through them. You hit to a saddle in the dunes and your second shot is to a green way below at the base of anther dune. Might be the 12th or 13th.

[Rory Connaughton]

Jack

  If you are thinking of the hole that plays from an elevated tee and the green is set in a dell its 13.  Fun hole and really terrific from the medal tee.

[mike_malone]

 I love#5 at Enniscrone;6 7 8 also

[Ally Mcintosh]

Martin Ebert on why he chose the 15th at Enniscrone:

The extension of the seaside links at Enniscrone into the untouched, dramatic and tumultuous dune land has significantly elevated the quality of the course. The layout now starts and finishes with the strongest links terrain and the 15th is the first of two consecutive holes which run closest to the shore line - ‘The Strand’ is an apt name. This is seaside golf at its most genuine with views of the surf crashing onto the beach of Killala Bay and inspiring, wind blown undulations to play over.

The hole doglegs right to left through a shallow valley system in the dunes and rewards a bold, accurate drive down the right side of the fairway. The further the drive is played, the easier the line into the green as it is protected by some severe marram covered humps and hollows to the left of the approach. The green itself is long and narrow and split into three distinct but naturally flowing levels. True links golf demanding two true blows and two sure putts for par.

[Rory Connaughton]

Interesting comments re 15.  It is an incredibly difficult hole due to the partially blind approach (if the tee ball is not carried far enough down the right side) and the angle of the green despite the fact that it can frequently be approached with a wedge or other short iron.
The fairway is reminiscent of Ballyliffin Old in that is very undulating and loaded with humps and hollows that deflect the ball in any number of directions.  Plenty of options off the tee to play for distance or safety but eventually the hole makes the big ask of everyone regardless of their strategy.

[Sean_A]

Martin Ebert on why he chose the 15th at Enniscrone:

The extension of the seaside links at Enniscrone into the untouched, dramatic and tumultuous dune land has significantly elevated the quality of the course. The layout now starts and finishes with the strongest links terrain and the 15th is the first of two consecutive holes which run closest to the shore line - ‘The Strand’ is an apt name. This is seaside golf at its most genuine with views of the surf crashing onto the beach of Killala Bay and inspiring, wind blown undulations to play over.

The hole doglegs right to left through a shallow valley system in the dunes and rewards a bold, accurate drive down the right side of the fairway. The further the drive is played, the easier the line into the green as it is protected by some severe marram covered humps and hollows to the left of the approach. The green itself is long and narrow and split into three distinct but naturally flowing levels. True links golf demanding two true blows and two sure putts for par.

Jack, yes, Strandhill was a very pleasant surprise.  I thought we may be in for a long day of boredom, how wrong I was. 

Ally

From an architectural PoV, I think 15 is the best hole on the course.  It was one of the handful of best holes we played on that trip.  Perhaps Sligo's 7th has its measure, but any course would be graced by these two holes. 

Enniscrone's 15th

It doesn't look it, but that is a 5 iron to the green. 


A closer look at the green.


Ciao

[mike_malone]

 The last time I played #15 at Enniscrone I severely yanked my drive but ended up on some path to the left of the dunes ; I hit my next shot straight landing on the path again; wedged to the back of the green and chipped in. So, I can't comment on the hole because I didn't play it !

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