News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2010, 01:20:02 PM »
Just a thought.  Peter (and Tom) decry the idea of 18 great holes on a course.  Is it possible for a "breather" hole to be a great hole?  Is it impossible for a course to have 18 great holes but not beat the golfer down by the challenge of those holes?

This isn't a question about perfection, because I don't think the word perfection has any meaning in GCA (which is why there can be 10s (and indeed 0s)).  It's more a question about whether a great hole needs to be one which exhausts the golfer, to the extent that 18 of them is too many.  Personally, I don't have any problem with the idea that a great hole can be (relatively) easy and fun to play.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2010, 04:29:43 PM »
Gentlemen, one of the better threads of late.

Emphasis - The eye/brain is designed to quickly seek out that which is different from it's surroundings while nature tries to give animals the ability to mimick their surroundings in order to NOT be noticed. It can be the difference between survival or not.  Therefore, when applying this to, say a golf course, objects that don't blend but rather "pop" from the tapestry will be noticed first, hence Emphasized.  Now the question becomes should that emphasis be placed to help you survive, or caution you where not to go?

Escaping Formality - perhaps referring to a more random, less formulated landscape.  The influences by Landscape Architects with Formal training on golf course design is probably a big reason for the apparent standardization of design principles.  I remember my dad, a LA - who only hired LA's gave me a book on LA.  As I began to read it, the only thing that went through my mind was "what the hell does this have to do with designing golf courses???" Needless to say I never got very far into that book before i put down and never picked it up again.

PP, I'm going to have to use that Navajo story the next time someone questions or criticizes me.  Can what to see their brain try and digest that! ;D

Mark P. Indeed I think you can.  I think if golf holes incessently challenge every aspect of ones game hole after hole, it just grinds you down.  A perpetual beat-down is not my definition of great - just laborious.  A breather can be not just a single hole but rathe a series of holes where each hole emphasizes a different aspect of the game and taken as a group, all aspects were empahsized but at a different pace than elsewhere on the course.
Coasting is a downhill process

TEPaul

Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2010, 05:25:25 PM »
Tim Nugent:

Now that LA has been introduced into this thread and discussion of GCA which is about the Strategic School of Architecture, with the risk of beginning to seemingly complicate things I am going to go to the next step of taking a look at the five aspects of LA as presented and explained by C&W---eg Harmony, Proportion, Balance, Rhythm and Emphasis, and talk about them and how I see them applying to GCA and particularly strategic considerations of GCA.

To me the aspects of Harmony and Balance are generally mostly in the realm of aesthetics and would have the least effect on any strategic message to me. The aspect of Rhythm would have a bit more of an effect on strategic messages to me, Proportion a bit more so, and lastly Emphasis which I feel is pretty much all about strategic messages, whether easily visible and/or identifiable or not.  
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 05:27:25 PM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2010, 05:42:47 PM »
Tim N - thanks again.  The way you phrased the question regarding emphasis brought this to mind: I don't much like what I call 'signifiers' on a golf course. If I'm being honest, though, I have to admit that I appreciate them -- they help me see/know which way to go. But the trouble for me is that, when those signifiers are too obvious (to me and everyone else), I lose all sense of pleasure/pride in being smart enough and perceptive enough to 'read the signs' correctly as it were; and all sense of gambling is gone. 

"I'm going to have to use that Navajo story the next time someone questions or criticizes me.  Can't what to see their brain try and digest that".  Ha, ha - yes, Tim, I grant you that. It is the kind of story that is perfect for a discussion board. I myself limit it to such :)

TEPaul

Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2010, 07:34:04 PM »
"As I've mentioned here before, I was really struck by reading that the old Navajos would purposely weave a mistake into their beautifully woven blankets 'in order to let the devil out'.  I think it showed a very wise and graceful awareness of the dangers of expecting perfection on this our plane of existence."


PeterP:


I'm certainly no expert on the history of the North American Indians of which there may've been a couple of thousand tribes, but it has been my understanding that generally most all North American Indians essentially looked at the land and Nature as almost part of them and as themselves as part of it. They did not believe in or perhaps never even contemplated such things as owning land as the Western European did and I suppose that also included the whole idea of attempting to change the arrangement of land and its natural atmosphere as of course Western Europeans did with the far more formal (civilized?) community which obviously included various forms and styles of landscape architecture.

In that context the idea of the Navajo weaving imperfections into beautiful blankets seems a logical extension of their over-all mentality towards the land and earth and the sort of "wilderness" aspect of it and is actually someone diametrically opposite or opposed to even the best classical Landscape Architecture approach which was to either remove or hide what were considered to be the unattractive aspects or defects of Nature. The latter is clearly an "idealized" version of and approach to Nature and it probably isn't just coincidental then that golf course architecture cojoined with Landscape Architecture of the man-created variety.

The latter was something the North American Indian probably ever even contemplated.


PS:
Here's something of a trick question----What came first, the Wilderness or Civilization?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 07:37:37 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2010, 08:32:20 PM »
By the way, I would say it is a provable fact in the history of golf course architecture that the originator and definitely the primary promoter of the idea of 18 great holes as the ideal or goal in golf course architecture was C.B. Macdonald!

He definitely stated and wrote before NGLA that there were a few great courses over here and certainly abroad but not a single one of them had 18 really good holes.

This was essentially his point and purpose of using "time-tested" template holes and "time-tested architectural features from abroad.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 08:34:28 PM by TEPaul »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2010, 09:16:31 PM »
Sean-I wasn't trying to imply that you needed huge sums of money to make a good course on less than stellar land. I do think, however, that it is nearly impossible to have natural looking bunkers on land that is not sandy. I have nothing against obviously manufactured bunkers, so long as they are placed correctly and strategically.

At Tom Doak's Riverfront, there are maybe 5 bunkers on the entire course that could be confused with being natural, and those are the ones bordering the marsh areas. All the others were manufactured during shaping. But they fit fine and aren't horrible. So I don't mind them.

Its just a fact that on inland courses, the bunkers must be manufactured in place and be mostly unnatural. This doesn't mean they must be intrusive of expensive.

John,
Can you define "placed correctly and strategically" ?

How many bunkers, even on noninland courses are actually natural? I'd argue percentagewise-very few (and I've played over  one hundred noninland courses.
I use the term noninland because many courses by the sea are not links or all their holes are not links.
and even pure links couses have a majority of "manufactured" bunkers.
Are round pot bunkers or stacked sod bunkers natural?

Additionally, some of the so called "natural" looking bunkers aren't natural at all and require quite a bit of construction/transplanting/building/maintenance to keep an ironically unkempt look.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Pallotta

Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2010, 09:26:27 PM »
TE - on your P.S. question: I guess one school of thought might be that Civilization came first, in that the human consciousness that expressed and manifested itself (among other ways) in the structures and systems of Civilization was a pre-requisite for the identifying/naming/conceptualizing of the Wilderness as Wilderness -- though of course the wilderness existed in and of itself long before we gave it a name.  And maybe in a kind of weird (and maybe useless) analogy, it is the consciousness of golfers on a site they identify as a golf course that is necessary for Naturalism as an aesthetic and architectural concept to come into being -- such that it isn't nature itself that we are judging but our golf-dependent concept of what appears and satisfies us as the Natural.

On CBM and NGLA, and as Tim N pointed out too: I recognize that the no weak holes/18 great holes concept was his, and that at NGLA the proof of the concept's validity/viability was in the pudding.  But, just a guess, I have a feeling that CBM's concept and execution of that ideal didn't survive him, and that instead it was only brought back to life by RTJ 40 years later or so, and brought back to life in a significantly altered and 'devolved' form, conceptually and execution-wise, and that it is this latter version of the concept that until very recently has shaped/dominated the thinking around and expressions of golf course architecture.  ANd it is this manifestation of the concept that I'm decrying. But even then, I'm not sure even the original idea could be consistently expressed by some of the other great architects (Colt and MacKenzie etc etc), or that those old greats would even want to.

Peter  

    

TEPaul

Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2010, 10:04:51 PM »
"TE - on your P.S. question: I guess one school of thought might be that Civilization came first, in that the human consciousness that expressed and manifested itself (among other ways) in the structures and systems of Civilization was a pre-requisite for the identifying/naming/conceptualizing of the Wilderness as Wilderness -- though of course the wilderness existed in and of itself long before we gave it a name.  And maybe in a kind of weird (and maybe useless) analogy, it is the consciousness of golfers on a site they identify as a golf course that is necessary for Naturalism as an aesthetic and architectural concept to come into being -- such that it isn't nature itself that we are judging but our golf-dependent concept of what appears and satisfies us as the Natural."


PeterP:

I feel that those are wonderful answers. I agree and support it all and I feel Max would too!  ;)

The thing I love the best about Max Behr's fascinating musings on the entire history of golf and architecture is when he mentioned that when golf (and architecture) first emigrated out of its original home in the Scottish linksland perhaps about a 160 years ago to lands and places wholly unsuited to receive it and then and thereby people began to pull all its pieces and parts apart to analyze them into some logical and understandable form, that was the time that both golf and Golf course architecture lost what he called its "Age of Innocence."

I think the same could historically be said about when the North American Indians first confronted what some call the "White Man" originally from Western Europe.


Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2010, 10:20:36 PM »
How do George Thomas and Stanley Thompson's ideas on strategic golf architecture compare with Simpson's and Mackenzie's later?

TEPaul

Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2010, 10:25:33 PM »
Tom MacWood:

Is that a bona fide question on your part because you feel you don't know? If not, why don't you try answering the question yourself for a change?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2010, 10:37:57 PM »
It was unfair question, and I retract it.

TEPaul

Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2010, 10:40:29 PM »
Was it "unfair question" or was it "AN unfair question?" Did the difference have anything to do with why you retracted it?  ;)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 10:43:03 PM by TEPaul »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2010, 10:45:46 PM »
Peter,
Does the 'Ideal' necessarily mean too demanding, or can it just mean that the architect was striving for no poorly designed holes, ones that didn't waste the space they occupied ?

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Peter Pallotta

Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2010, 11:06:53 PM »
Jim - Mark P and Tim N also posted on that question, and I didn't have anything to add to their points. But when you asked it again, I realized that I'm thinking of the term differently than you gents, i.e. it never occured to me to wonder if the Ideal would be too demanding/challenging or not; that doesn't seem all that important.  I just think that, if you try to route a course (even on a good site) in the most natural and golf-friendly way you can, it seems nearly impossible to create a golf course with an easy (and walkable) flow and a (pleasing) character and a (genuine) uniqueness if you have in the back/front of your mind some ideal that there can be "no weak holes", or that you have to produce "18 postcards."  I think the attempt to avoid at all costs any golf holes that may be deemed transition holes or breather holes or weak holes has been the cause of all sorts of consequences (some intended, some unintended) that have not been good for golf or golf course architecture in general.

TE -- Yes, very nice. The Age of Innocence for gca is a concept that has a lot to recommend it (as least for discussion purposes :)).

Peter

TEPaul

Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2010, 11:11:29 PM »
"TE -- Yes, very nice. The Age of Innocence for gca is a concept that has a lot to recommend it (as least for discussion purposes )."


Peter:

You may recall that even Max Behr said that "Age of Innocence" of golf and golf architecture that he referred to before golf and golf architecture first began to emigrate out of the linksland to places and sites that were not appropriate to receive it was something that golf and golf architecture may never be able to return to, at least not without at least 4-5 important exceptions!

TEPaul

Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2010, 11:39:18 PM »
"Jim - Mark P and Tim N also posted on that question, and I didn't have anything to add to their points. But when you asked it again, I realized that I'm thinking of the term differently than you gents, i.e. it never occured to me to wonder if the Ideal would be too demanding/challenging or not; that doesn't seem all that important.  I just think that, if you try to route a course (even on a good site) in the most natural and golf-friendly way you can, it seems nearly impossible to create a golf course with an easy (and walkable) flow and a (pleasing) character and a (genuine) uniqueness if you have in the back/front of your mind some ideal that there can be "no weak holes", or that you have to produce "18 postcards."  I think the attempt to avoid at all costs any golf holes that may be deemed transition holes or breather holes or weak holes has been the cause of all sorts of consequences (some intended, some unintended) that have not been good for golf or golf course architecture in general."



PeterP:

Maybe you are thinking of the term differently than some of us but have you or are you considereing NGLA? Have you ever seen it or considered it, and in the context of some of what has been and is being discussed on this thread?

Have you seen NGLA Jim Kennedy and considered it in the context of what has been and is being discussed on this thread?

If either of you have seen it and carefully considered it let's talk about how it plays out in the context of some of what's been and is being discussed on this thread.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2010, 11:48:00 PM »
How did William Flynn view the strategic school of golf architecture?

TEPaul

Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2010, 12:16:51 AM »
"How did William Flynn view the strategic school of golf architecture?"


Tom MacWood:

I wish I could ask him but it seems it's too late. But perhaps we could do the next best thing and just get you to tell us how William Flynn viewed the strategic school of golf architecture. There must be some newspaper and magazine article out there somewhere that explains it. Maybe the USGA Green Section Bulletin is a good place to look. I'm only capable of considering Cornish and Whitten so why don't you do the heavy in-depth research for us and tell us how William Flynn viewed the strategic school of golf architecture?  
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 12:22:35 AM by TEPaul »

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2010, 07:47:46 AM »
Guys

Strategic School Of Architecture seems to have mislaid Penal after being a fundamental part of the game of golf. No hazards equates to minimal challenges dulling the golfers experience and ultimately their enjoyment yet making the whole round easier. I suppose we are encouraging more people but I thought it was golfers that we want on our golf courses.

That said, I suppose it depends on the players commitment to playing a Game called Golf. But has anything actually been learnt at Strategic School Of Architecture about GCA?

Strategic School Of Architecture has nothing to teach unless it incorporates Penal. Bring back the Stocks for Golfers, to test their resolve.

                           

But will that make a difference to my fellow debaters on GCA.com. I fear not as you seem very comfortable with the current state of play. Why bother walking or thinking when machines can do it for you, penal is just too strenuous and soon strategic will only exist in a CAD program as by then we will have become to lazy to think or care. But Hey Guys enjoy your game (while you can remember what game it is you play).

Thinking seems no longer a key factor in the modern game of golf or have we not quite got to that point yet. It’s soon going to be a question of use your little grey cell or lose them.

Sorry, just having a penal moment guys to go with my senior red flushes (wife just caught me with those mags, you know the type, full of girls selling eeeeerrrrrrr golfing cloths, well when they wear them)

Melvyn

PS The word Penal has gone underground, its nearly a forbidden word, Strategic School Of Architecture only whispers it these days for fear of being associated with it, nevertheless it is an integral part of strategic and we need to remember its certainly as much as the writings of all the old designers. Penal, Penal, Penal, see its not a dirty word, far from it, it is short uncomplicated and precise unlike the word strategic which by its own nature is multi-complicated but rather easy without penal. Strategic School Of Architecture needs to review its Curriculum and soon IMHO
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 07:51:34 AM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2010, 09:57:14 AM »
The penal school of architecture was invented by golf architects to label other golf architects they didn't care for or agree with. No one ever claimed to be associated with the penal school of golf architecture. There are no purely strategic or penal designs, all golf courses are blends of strategic and penal aspects, usually leaning one direction or the other. As a general rule, American golf architecture after 1913 leaned more to the penal than did the British.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2010, 10:16:30 AM »

Tom

Penal but with shallow bunkers - who is kidding who, fairways surrounded on both sides by bunkers is not penal just a waste of money and generates high maintenance costs

But as I said many months ago ‘Penal’ and ‘Strategic’ are they really two separate and different concepts of design or are they, as I believe, part and parcel for the strategic design package. 

I'll leave you to your own definition of penal and for that matter strategic.

Melvyn

TEPaul

Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2010, 10:22:01 AM »
Tom MacWood said:
“The penal school of architecture was invented by golf architects to label other golf architects they didn't care for or agree with. No one ever claimed to be associated with the penal school of golf architecture.”





That remark seems to have been taken from or borrowed from Bob Crosby’s excellent essay on here entitled Joshua Crane, that is essentially an examination in much greater detail of the so-called Joshua Crane/Behr and Mackenzie Debate that was cast back then as the Strategic School vs the Penal School of architecture, although as Bob Crosby outlines below, it really wasn’t that or just that-----it was a good deal more and more complex set of issues:





“Joshua Crane In The Golden Age, Part IV
by Bob Crosby
A Postscript:
Why the Penal v Strategic Architecture Distinction is the Wrong One; A Modest Proposal for a Better One; Or Why Joshua Crane Helps to Make Sense of It All
There are a number of reasons why revisiting the Crane debates is worth the candle. Among them is that the debates help untangle a number of thorny issues in the long-lived contrast between “penal” versus “strategic” architecture. What follows explores how the Crane debates help to sort out some of those issues and how they suggest a better way to distinguish fundamental differences in architecture philosophies.
As will be recalled, Crane deeply resented the “penologist” tag that Behr and MacKenzie gave him. It’s a safe bet that it was one the things they argued about when they got together in St Andrews in the summer of 1929. Crane thought the tag had been concocted solely to belittle him and his ideas. Objecting to MacKenzie’s use of the term, Crane wrote, “This is a direct literary piracy of Max Behr’s classification of golf architects where the goats are put in the ‘Penal School,’ and the sheep in the “Strategic School.” A pretty way of attributing false sentiments to an opponent then proceeding to condemn him therefor.”
In the last years of the Golden Age it was taken as an article of faith that the two schools were locked in combat. All of the era’s best books had set piece confrontations between good guy strategic architects and bad guy penal architects.[1] These books were not neutral, expository guides to golf architecture. Little attempt was made to give a balanced overview of different design philosophies. To the contrary, when the authors turned to philosophies of golf design, these books read like position papers in a heated argument and they all took the same side of the argument. Three decades or so later Robert Trent Jones revived many of the same themes, endowing the penal v. strategic distinction with the canonical status it currently enjoys. The distinction is today a core concept in golf architecture.
But the distinction’s long life ought to be seen as surprising. First, it’s never been clear who exactly the advocates for penal architecture were. If you’ve gotten through the earlier parts of this essay you know that Crane wasn’t one – at least not the one depicted by his opponents. But it’s not just about Crane. Architects boasting of their penal designs have always been scarce on the ground. As Tom Simpson noted in 1929, “..every golf architect, if he were asked the question to which school he belonged, would profess to be strategical.” Penal architecture is not a banner which many people have flown. MacKenzie and Behr notwithstanding, the penal school is a school without alumni.
But it isn’t just that penal architecture is an idea without a following. The concept itself is a muddle, one that obscures more than it clarifies. Given the origins of the term, that’s not surprising. Most of what we know about penal architecture we’ve learned from its opponents, architects like Behr, MacKenzie, Simpson and others. Their depictions tended to be less than even-handed – even cartoonish – for all the obvious rhetorical reasons.[2] Their strawman caricatures, however, ended up shaping modern understandings of the term. What people think they know today about penal architecture tends to be what MacKenzie and others told us it was. In short, the strategic/penal divide is not only one in which the identity of the antagonists is unclear, the meaning typically ascribed to one of its key terms is something about which we ought to be very skeptical.
The Crane debates help to clarify not only what’s wrong with the distinction, they also suggest a better way to parse fundamental differences in architectural philosophies. The debates tell us that seeing fundamental differences in design philosophies as turning on a distinction between strategy and penalty is misleading, both conceptually and as a matter of history. What has really been afoot over the years is a different sort of disagreement. A better antonym of strategic architecture is not penal architecture but rather something akin to Crane’s actual views – something like Crane’s CP&P principles. A better framework for seeing historic debates over basic design philosophies is to see them as debates between, on the one hand, strategic architecture and what might be called “equitable architecture” on the other.
*                                       *                                       *

« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 10:24:47 AM by TEPaul »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2010, 07:55:40 AM »
Tom MacWood said:
“The penal school of architecture was invented by golf architects to label other golf architects they didn't care for or agree with. No one ever claimed to be associated with the penal school of golf architecture.”

That remark seems to have been taken from or borrowed from Bob Crosby’s excellent essay on here entitled Joshua Crane, that is essentially an examination in much greater detail of the so-called Joshua Crane/Behr and Mackenzie Debate that was cast back then as the Strategic School vs the Penal School of architecture, although as Bob Crosby outlines below, it really wasn’t that or just that-----it was a good deal more and more complex set of issues:

After reading yout post it seems that Bob Crosby has taken or borrowed the idea from Max Behr.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: Strategic School Of Architecture
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2010, 09:47:17 AM »
I think what Bob Crosby did in his essay and more than anyone else before him is take a much more detailed look at what that so-called debate was really about as well as what it wasn't about.

In that vein, I think it is very important and edifying how he mentioned that nobody really claimed to be a member of some "Penal School" of architecture and in a real way that was just something that Behr hit Crane with as basically a debating point of ploy.

I also think Bob Crosby's creation of the term "C, P & P" and his detailed explanation of what it means is just brilliant and really gets to the essence of what that debate was all about from Crane's perspective which clearly concerned the likes of Behr and Mackenzie, at least as a philosophy or an attitude towards golf and architecture.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2010, 09:49:01 AM by TEPaul »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back