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Jim Thornton

Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2010, 01:43:17 PM »
First, a disclaimer:  I have been a member at Hidden Creek for 6 years and I love everything about it.

With that said, I am continually amazed at the "myth" that continues to be perpetrated about HC being flat.  I suppose "flat" is a relative term, but I think of Florida golf as flat and Hidden Creek is nowhere near as flat as a Floriday golf course.  Given HC's proximity to the NJ shoreline, it's surprising just how much movement there is in the property.  To cite some examples:

No. 2 - downhill to the green
No. 3 - uphill on the tee shot
No. 4 - valley between tee and green
No. 6 - downhill tee shot
No. 8 - large hill between tee and green
No. 10 - gradually uphill
No. 11 - sharply uphill
No. 12 - sharply uphill on tee shot
No. 15 - downhill tee shot, uphill approach
No. 17 - gradually uphill from fairway to green
No. 18 - valley between tee and fairway, valley between fairway and green

Now I ask you, does this sound like a "flat" course?  While I freely admit it's nowhere near a "hilly" course, those of you who continue to parrot the myth that it's flat are either misinformed or blind.

David Elvins -

I have absolutely no issue with you voicing your opinion of HC, but how do you expect to be taken seriously when you state that HC is the worst C&C course you have seen, then proceed to admit it's the only C&C course you've seen, and then top it off by saying that your opinion that it is the worst C&C course is not even your own, but that of someone else on GCA?  Huh?


Jim
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 02:45:17 PM by Jim Thornton »

Anthony Gray

Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2010, 02:20:30 PM »


  Jim,

  How hidden is the creek and how many holes does it come into play?

  Anthony


Jim Thornton

Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2010, 02:50:15 PM »
Anthony-

The location of the creek is perhaps the most closely guarded secret at HC.  It took me over 5 years to find it, and I'm not sure if I could find my way back to it even if I tried.

Jim

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2010, 03:05:49 PM »
First, a disclaimer:  I have been a member at Hidden Creek for 6 years and I love everything about it.

With that said, I am continually amazed at the "myth" that continues to be perpetrated about HC being flat.  I suppose "flat" is a relative term, but I think of Florida golf as flat and Hidden Creek is nowhere near as flat as a Floriday golf course.  Given HC's proximity to the NJ shoreline, it's surprising just how much movement there is in the property.  To cite some examples:

No. 2 - downhill to the green
No. 3 - uphill on the tee shot
No. 4 - valley between tee and green
No. 6 - downhill tee shot
No. 8 - large hill between tee and green
No. 10 - gradually uphill
No. 11 - sharply uphill
No. 12 - sharply uphill on tee shot
No. 15 - downhill tee shot, uphill approach
No. 17 - gradually uphill from fairway to green
No. 18 - valley between tee and fairway, valley between fairway and green

Now I ask you, does this sound like a "flat" course?  While I freely admit it's nowhere near a "hilly" course, those of you who continue to parrot the myth that it's flat are either misinformed or blind.

David Elvins -

I have absolutely no issue with you voicing your opinion of HC, but how do you expect to be taken seriously when you state that HC is the worst C&C course you have seen, then proceed to admit it's the only C&C course you've seen, and then top it off by saying that your opinion that it is the worst C&C course is not even your own, but that of someone else on GCA?  Huh?


Jim

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think many people confuse minimal elevation change with flat. I'll take a course with minimal elevation change - even less than HC - and lots of micro contour over one with major elevation changes yet relatively flat fairways. I absolutely loved HC, would join tomorrow if I could, and I would never ever describe it as flat, for both the little undulations and the many areas you listed.

Fwiw, I think you misread David Elvins' posts a bit; he later clarified his initial statement, saying that he was repeating someone else's claim, not his own. If I were he, I would have made that a little clearer in the initial statement, but I don't think he meant anything bad.

There's probably people that would say so-and-so is the ugliest Victoria's Secret angel as well... It's all a matter of perspective. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2010, 03:20:25 PM »
Chip  (and others that have played it a bit),

What are your thoughts on the playability of the 4th, 11th and 14th (Par 3s). 

Does 4 only really work to a back pin position?

NO,  The green is so massive that there are an inordinate number of wonderful hole locations.
Anything flanking the fronting bunker is really a challenge and front hole locations work equally well.
It's a fun hole to play no matter where the pin is located.


Is the target area and pinnable area on 11 too small,

Not when you're hitting from 100 to 130 yards.
The green sits up on the top of that hill, flanked by bunkers with rolloff front and back.
It's clearly a short target hole with danger lurking for those that miss the target, but at 100-130 yards, accuracy should be at a premium.

does the front to back slope of the 14th green make it too hard a target to hit? 

Not really, it's a HUGE green, with a closely mown approach and left flank.
And, the tilt or front to back slope isn't pronounced.
Well struck tee shots/approaches will hold well.  Mis-hits won't.
That's the way it should  be.


What were your experiences playing these holes?

I'm biased for a variety of reasons, amongst them is that I'm very fond of Roger, Ian, Jeff and the entire staff, love the golf course and am a member, but, that doesn't preclude me from being objective.

I really like the holes you mention and the entire golf course.

There are so many really, really good holes on that golf course, and, they're all fun to play.


archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2010, 03:30:49 PM »
 :D ;) :D


Pat ...Chip ...Sully et al ....I think that most of us enjoy Hidden Creek it's a fine members course but they need to put a new tee on #8 about another 40 yards back ...oops , i did it again.,... lol

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2010, 03:54:22 PM »
:D ;) :D


Pat ...Chip ...Sully et al ....I think that most of us enjoy Hidden Creek it's a fine members course but they need to put a new tee on #8 about another 40 yards back ...oops , i did it again.,... lol


Archie,

Why remove the challenge of clearing the centerline bunker with the prospect of hitting the green for so many golfers.

Remember, once you put a new tee 40 yards back, ALL golfers playing from the back tees have to play that tee.

If you had your druthers would you move the centerline bunker 40 yards closer to the green ? ;D
Or, would you add another bunker closer to the green ?


Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2010, 04:11:43 PM »
Here are some of my photos from opening day.  I did not play but I did get to meet Mr Hansen and we were allowed to have a look around.  I think it is one of the most underrated golf courses I have ever visited.















Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2010, 04:14:21 PM »
















Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Ian Dalzell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2010, 04:24:03 PM »
Archie
You need to get invited over soon - we already added the new tee on #8 which will be open next month, resulting in a 265 carry in the air if you want to carry the centerline bunker.  Now, not all golfers will decide to play the Championship tees, which with a new Championship tee on #17 as well as the one we added last year on hole #2 now totals just over 7,023 yards, but if you want to try, go right ahead.  Knock yourself out!! ???

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2010, 04:55:02 PM »
What's Hidden Creek like in the late fall, winter, and early spring?  Open year-round?  Relatively temperate because of the proximity to the ocean?

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2010, 06:18:14 PM »
David Elvins -

I have absolutely no issue with you voicing your opinion of HC, but how do you expect to be taken seriously when you state that HC is the worst C&C course you have seen, then proceed to admit it's the only C&C course you've seen, and then top it off by saying that your opinion that it is the worst C&C course is not even your own, but that of someone else on GCA?  Huh?

Jim,

As George kindly pointed out, my initial post was poorly worded.  My intention was not to slight the course, but draw attention to the quality of the site, like you have.

I don't rate the course as highly as some on here and would explain it as follows.    A lot of the features that differentiate the course from others in the area - short grass chipping areas, firm greens, wide fairways, are common in my home town of Melbourne.  The site is also very similar in undulation and soil type to many of the members clubs in Melbourne too - Kingston Heath, Metropolitan, Woodlands, Commonwealth in particular.  So the features that a lot of people love about the course are more standard from my viewpoint.  As is the terrain.   Due to the above, I am unable to give C&C much credit for doing a good job on a difficult site, which seems to be a default position for some. Furthermore, I travelled half way around the world to see the work of C&C so had high expectations. And to be honest, some of the holes were underwhelming, when taking into account my expectations of C&C being the world's best architect.  Without this perspective, their is nothing wrong with holes, but taking the 11th for example: Chip is right to give credit for someone building a short up-hill par 3 however, architecturalliy i thought it was way behind the 9th at Commonwealth, a similar length hole on similar terrain. 

If I judged the course on its merits, I think it is obviously really good.  I absolutely loved the firm contoured greens, the tricky contours, the wide fiarways, the strategic bunkers, and the creative use of artifical mounds.   The way the club was set up also seemd ideal. and I loved the fact that Ian was kind enough to let me tour the course.  The 2nd and 8th are two of my favorite holes in the world, however when judging the architecture I thought the back nine lacked the creativity in design of the front nine and whilst subtlety in design is good, the holes that stood out were the ones that had the most creative features (eg. the bunkering on 3, green on 4, mounds on 5, green on 8).   

Obviously, I am basing my opinion on one tour of the course, so I am looking forward to continueing to learn and read more about the course on GCA (and maybe be proven wrong and re-adjusting my view in a few areas). 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2010, 07:05:49 PM »
I played HC once during Pat Mucci's outing and found it to be absolutely wonderful.    I loved it completely.

Bob Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2010, 07:12:05 PM »
Archie
You need to get invited over soon - we already added the new tee on #8 which will be open next month, resulting in a 265 carry in the air if you want to carry the centerline bunker.  Now, not all golfers will decide to play the Championship tees, which with a new Championship tee on #17 as well as the one we added last year on hole #2 now totals just over 7,023 yards, but if you want to try, go right ahead.  Knock yourself out!! ???

Ian,

It's sounds to me that you absolutely must have the course re-rated ASAP.  I haven't been there since the last rating and I'm sure I won't have any trouble getting a team together for a re-rate.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2010, 07:43:24 PM »
Boy, GAP raters must have the greatest job in the world :)

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2010, 08:16:51 PM »
Mr. Mucci-

That benevolent dictator model works yet again!

Steve-

I think Hidden Creek has a much better set of greens than Colorado Golf Club.  Colorado Golf Club certainly is special and has some true gems like #2, #8, #9, #18 but I think the lesser holes at Hidden Creek are much better than the lesser holes at Colorado Golf Club.  Its splitting hairs though.  The vistas at CGC are obviously much better.  Both course have world class short par 3s!

David

My two rounds had very front and middle pin positions on #11.  Both were very tough.  The front one is extremely hard, but then again I am only hitting a wedge.  I hit the green both rounds and three putted both rounds >:(  I hit driver both rounds on #4 so I can't say I was too concerned with the pin placement.  #14 is good fun and you can really bounce it in. 

John-

I did really like #8, as I love short par 4s....but I playing into the wind I had no chance of reaching the green.  I did carry the bunker once but still couldn't get it on the green.  I do love that green.  Reminds me of 14th at Augusta a little.  So much fun to play.

Jim Sullivan-

It did take me a dozen holes to learn to land the ball short...I'm a slow learner.  Public school eduction for you. ;D

Mike-

Great meeting you guys this weekend.  Beers in the locker room were too tasty, we were in bed by 10PM!

Jim Thornton-

You are lucky to be a member, what fun!  I totally agree, there is no way I would call Hidden Creek flat land.  #4, #5, #11, #18, etc all have significant elevation changes.

I can only imagine the course on a low humidity day in May or October...what fun watching the ball bounce around.  The greens really do remind me of Perry Maxwell and we all know he certainly built some world class green complexes.  Such a great great place!

Chip

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2010, 02:10:51 AM »
I have always liked the look of Hidden Creek and it doesn't appear to be flat to me.  In fact, as I get older these sort of minimal elevation change courses become more and more appealing.  Playing in the hills is a young man's game.  Unfortunately, in my trip to Philly I missed the opportunity to play this course due to stupidity on my part - heavy sigh.  At least it was mother nature which prevented me from playing French Creek.  I need to go back one day.

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2010, 09:12:13 AM »
Sean,
The volcano has stopped and the Red Wings are still in the playoffs - Come on over!

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2010, 09:52:24 AM »
Perhaps HC doesn't get the recognition it deserves because of all the accolades for Galloway which has the bay views, etc., and is one of Tom Fazio's best courses.  I loved HC the first time I played it with Tommy N and George Bahto whom I had to drag off some of the greens because of the great recovery shots and putting challenges.  It is the great greens with the strategic bunkering that makes the course really outstanding and demonstrates the quality of C & C.  I was much more impressed with HC than I was with Colorado Golf where I felt the holes on the flat part of the property were far more interesting than those with the big elevation changes and it lacked the consistent greatness of Friars Head.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2010, 11:38:28 AM »
 Jerry,

    Do you really feel HC gets slighted?
AKA Mayday

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2010, 11:48:38 AM »
Mayday:  I think HC clearly gets slighted when compared with Galloway.  I don't necessarily think that HC is overall a better course than Galloway but it certainly is a close second and should be right after it in any ratings.  Galloway gets part of its recognition because of the views on the bay and for TF it is so much better than many of his "beautiful" courses. I also think Galloway can be really tough and make for a really bad day if you are not at the top of your game while HC is certainly challenging but will not destroy you if you are having an off day - I cannot see a 20 handicapper having a fun day at Galloway.   

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2010, 12:08:35 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D

Thanks Ian , will look forward to seeing and playing #8 from the new tee...it will bring those bunkers into play and make for a decision on the tee ...good stuff

Pat , as stated , don't think that you should be able to hit a par four unless you really nuke it or take an inordinate risk to stripe it thru an alley fraught with periil

hope to see you all on a golf course soon!
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 03:26:00 PM by archie_struthers »

TEPaul

Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #47 on: April 23, 2010, 12:20:46 PM »
"Amazing what C&C did with essentially a flat piece of land. It was a job they initially didn't want to do."


SteveS:

What do you mean it was a job they originally didn't want to do?

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #48 on: April 23, 2010, 05:46:34 PM »
Tom,

If I remember correctly from Bill Coore's talk at HC a few years ago, he said it took a lot of arm twisting and persuasion by Roger Hansen to even get to the point of taking a tour of the property.

As Ran wrote:

Many factors go into the creation of a great course, with a ‘great’ defined as a course that one wishes to play numerous times year after year.

The site needs to be special. The driving force behind the project has to understand that golf is about enjoyment and variety. The architect has to deliver a strategic design thatisevery bit asinspiring to play the 100th time as it is the 1st. In addition, all three factorsmust cometogether at the same time.

Such is the case at Hidden Creek, though from the time that the owner first contacted the architects to when this dream course opened was 17 years!

To start with, the owner of Hidden Creek, Roger Hansen,grew upoutside of Atlantic City,New Jersey where he gainedan appreciation of classic architecture at Atlantic CityCountry Club, the two coursesat Seaview Country Club and then later at Pine Valley Golf Club.In 1985, having read an article in a golf magazine where Ben Crenshaw expressed an interest in designing courses, Hansen called Crenshaw. At the end of the lengthy telephone conversation, Crenshaw encouraged him to contact a man named Bill Coore. Having done so, Hansen eventually flewdown to tour Coore’s Rockport Country Club in Corpus Christi with Coore in December, 1986. The two men hit it off and Hansen knew who he would select should he ever get into the golf course business.

A few years passed but in 1991, Hansen decided to develop two public access courses in Galloway Township. He contacted the now existing architect firm of Coore & Crenshaw and had Coore come see the site. Ultimately, Coore & Crenshaw politely declined the project as they were tied up in Hawaii with the design of the Plantation Course at Kapalua.

Nonetheless, Hansen pursued his vision and the resulting Stephen Kay and Steve Smyers courses were an immediatesuccess with the Smyers course hosting the U.S. Public Links Championship in 2003.

A few more years pass and it is now the fall of 1998 when Hansen becomes aware of another large block of property within10 miles of Atlantic City.This time, hewas surprised/delighted to find that the site has up to 50 feet in elevation change with consistent movement thoughout the upland part of the property.Thus, he contacts Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw again. With a little arm twisting, he convinces Coore that this site does indeed hold promise and to return to south New Jersey to see for himself.

Once on site, Coore stays, walking and re-walking the property. The clubhouse needed to be located within 1000feet of the entrance drive to avoid seeking a state permit to improve the roadway, the timing of which would have delayed the project for at least one year. Apart from the location of the clubhouse, Hansen gave Coore carte blanche to go anywhere that he wanted on the expansive 750 acres. After three weeks, and on one occasion having wandered off the property and stumbled onto a shooting range (!), Coore had seen enough andflew back to Texas.

Coore and Crenshaw discussed the matter and replied to Hansen that they could build a course that would be reflective of the site’s charms. Hansen accepted their terms and work commenced in the summer of 2000.

Think about it- Coore spent three weeks on site before Coore & Crenshawhad a signed contract. That is more time than 90% of the big name architects spend on site after they get a signed contract!

With only a couple of modifications on the back side, thefinal routing was theone that Coore visualizedduring his three week stay with Hansen. He decided that none of the 300 acres of wetlands would feature into the design and thattheholeswould stay on the upland part of the property which possessed the natural movement and land forms. Coore’s routing standsout inexcellence becauseit perfectly exposedthe rolls of theproperty through one engaging hole after another while at the same time minimizing any green to tee walks. The end result is that only 50,000 cubic yards of dirt were movedduring the project and that the course is reflective of the ground upon which it sits.

As Coore says,

The Hidden Creek site required very little alteration to the landscape. The holes lay on the ground pretty much the way we found it. That’s consistent with the way Ben and I like to work…We look for projects in which the site lends itself to golf in its natural form. Hidden Creek looked like golf in its natural form in terms of rolling terrain and trees.Since the fairways required minimal movement of earth, it enabled us to emphasize details, such as bunkers and the contouring of greens.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Gem of Jersey: Hidden Creek
« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2010, 05:51:43 PM »
Tom,

If I remember correctly from Bill Coore's talk at HC a few years ago, he said it took a lot of arm twisting and persuasion by Roger Hansen to even get to the point of taking a tour of the property.

As Ran wrote:

Many factors go into the creation of a great course, with a ‘great’ defined as a course that one wishes to play numerous times year after year.

The site needs to be special. The driving force behind the project has to understand that golf is about enjoyment and variety. The architect has to deliver a strategic design thatisevery bit asinspiring to play the 100th time as it is the 1st. In addition, all three factorsmust cometogether at the same time.

Such is the case at Hidden Creek, though from the time that the owner first contacted the architects to when this dream course opened was 17 years!

That just illustrates how powerful the individual's perception is. I didn't get the feeling they didn't want to do the course at all. And I don't remember anything about a 17 year process. My recollection is that C&C were in "the area" doing FH or Easthampton (can't remember which) and went down to see site. Bill walked the site for his customary couple weeks and ended up agreeing to build a course.

I'd love it if someone who remembers the knows in toto could enlighten the rest of us.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

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