Eden Hole and Knoll/Redan questions

[Mac Plumart]

I am trying to learn how to spot classic architectural holes when I see them.  Would you all call this par 3 (#2 at East Lake) an Eden Hole?


Also, I don't see much difference between a Redan and a Knoll hole except one is a par 3 and one is a par 4.  Any help on distinguishing between them would be appreciated.  For instance, the par 3 14th at Kiawah doesn't look like a Redan to  me...it looks more like a par 3 Knoll.

[Scott Warren]

Mac,

I would say the lake and greenfront rough on that East Lake hole would, in my belief (and there are many here who have played many more Edens than I, but I have played THE Eden) stop it being considered an Eden.

[TEPaul]

"I am trying to learn how to spot classic architectural holes when I see them.  Would you all call this par 3 (#2 at East Lake) an Eden Hole?"


Mac:

Yes I would but only vaguely which most template or concept adaptations are and are probably meant to be. But the East Lake one has an adaptation of the Strath bunker front and right and a vague adaptation of the high or hill bunker left and the green looks like it slopes back to front as CBM's Eden hole adaptation at NGLA does bigtime. There is also the pond in front which was CBM's wrinkle (even if with CGM's NGLA Eden it was much farther removed from the green) and change from TOC's Eden because he didn't want golfers putting their ball to the green as they could on TOC's Eden.

Hope that helps your understanding.

[TEPaul]

I don't know where the inspiration for CBM's first Knoll hole came from but I do know Piping Rock, his second significant course after NGLA, has one as its 13th. I know that because I grew up at Piping Rock. That hole you showed has some characteristics of CBM's Piping Knoll hole but they are very vague architectural adaptation ramifications.

I hope that helps.

PS:
CBM's Piping Knoll hole once had that approach ramp cut to fairway height but many years ago they changed that to a rough grass and a bunkered front.

[George_Bahto]

Tom - "I don't know where the inspiration for CBM's first Knoll hole "

it comes from Scotscraig in Scotland one of the earliest of courses.

The green is near exact to PR-13

[Greg Holland]

Would you consider 14 at Yeaman's Hall a Knoll hole? 

[TEPaul]

"Tom - "I don't know where the inspiration for CBM's first Knoll hole "

it comes from Scotscraig in Scotland one of the earliest of courses.

The green is near exact to PR-13"



Georgie Porgie Puddin' Pie:


Thanks for that. I've only known Piping's Knoll for fifty years but I never knew that. Does Piping know it? If you think they don't you just let me handle it-----eg I'll tell them a friend of mine can prove it but if they want to know about it in detail they'll pretty much need to make him an honorary member first! 

[Mac Plumart]

I've been told the 14th at Yeamans is a Knoll hole, but I haven't played it...so I can't give my first hand opinion.  However, I've seen pictures and it looks like one.

In regards to a Redan, I've seen photos of the 15th at North Berwick, 4 at The National, and 3 at Piping Rock and on all of those you really can't see the green as it is hidden by the elevated nature of the green.  And it is my understanding that this is a defining characteristic of a Redan.  So if you decide to try to go for the green in one shot, you've got to get the ball up over that edge/hill and then hold the ball on the green as the green slopes away from you.

On that picture related to the 14th at Kiawah Ocean, I guess I could see a Redan if that pin would be moved to behind that bunker...but regardless you can still see the right side of the green and you can hit right to that part of the green with no real issue.  Hence, my confusion as to why people call that a Redan and, hence, the question and seeking thoughts, opinions, and clarifications.

And then, if 14 at Kiawah is a Redan...I guess I am struggling to see what seperates a Redan from a Knoll other than a par 3 vs par 4?

[George_Bahto]

Mac - think of the Knoll hole as a highly elevated Short hole bunkering

If you saw the Knoll hole and the RTedan at Piping Rock you would see how different they are

also, generally, original Knoll holes had a back plateau

[TEPaul]

Mac:

You know I could answer all your questions in Post #7 and in specific detial but I have to tell you that you need to start considering some of these things to do with architecture and concept architecture more in the mode and method of analyzing the differences (contrasts) between them rather that in the similarities (comparisons) between them.

We all need to keep doing that because if we don't we will all fall into the sort of waste-land vacuum MO of a person like Tom MacWood! He only book learns this stuff and never really sees it or experiences it and so his MO is to try to group it all together into some sort of indistinguishable sameness just to try to make some non-credible point of some direct influence from something or someone that is basically irrelevant.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom P:

I discovered the connection between the hole at Scotscraig and the one at Piping completely by accident.  After the Open at Shinnecock in 1986, I took a friend of mine to Piping to show him the work we had been doing there, and when we got to #13, he said he knew where Macdonald had got that idea from ... the 4th at Scotscraig, where my friend had grown up playing.

I took George to see it when we went over to Scotland 2-3 years back, and sure enough, the holes bear a distinct resemblance, right down to a two-tiered green (although the green at Piping Rock is much more pronounced).

I never saw Macdonald mention Scotscraig in writing, nor attribute the idea for the hole at Piping Rock to anywhere, but it does make me think that he had a few up his sleeve which he never let on.  Lundin Links (the part that used to be part of Leven) has another ... the very next hole after the "Leven" hole is almost certainly the model for the 16th at National ... and for the fourth hole at Old Macdonald!

[Jerry Kluger]

The 14th at Kiawah Ocean Course is not a redan - it is an elevated green with dropoffs, there is no way to run the ball on to the green and there is no front and back section.

[TEPaul]

"The 14th at Kiawah Ocean Course is not a redan - it is an elevated green with dropoffs, there is no way to run the ball on to the green and there is no front and back section."




So what is there, Jerry, just one great big enormous middle?

I just knew my life-long friend Pete Dye was a God-damned golf architetural genius and that proves it.

[Jim_Kennedy]

TEP,
I don't doubt that a little legwork is a good thing, but without the written word I would probably have little or no chance of ever knowing that the inspiration for the Knoll hole came from the 4th at Scotscraig, or that certain similarites of one hole can be used to explain another, ideas that were put forth on this thread.
There are different approaches, and one may be more fruitful than another, but as long as you're looking for facts instead of fiction you should be respected for your work, and we all want that, don't we? Lot of good stuff here, and in only a few postings.


  

[Jerry Kluger]

TEP: What you have is one of the great par 3s I have played.  It is played at about a 45 degree angle with respect to the beach line and the flagstick sits there with the ocean/horizon as a backdrop - simple and maginificent.  Yes, the green is really just a shelf that you have to hit and there is usually a wind blowing which makes it difficult and the recovery is certainly challenging chipping up the slope from a very tight lie.  

[Bill_McBride]

Tom P:

I discovered the connection between the hole at Scotscraig and the one at Piping completely by accident.  After the Open at Shinnecock in 1986, I took a friend of mine to Piping to show him the work we had been doing there, and when we got to #13, he said he knew where Macdonald had got that idea from ... the 4th at Scotscraig, where my friend had grown up playing.

I took George to see it when we went over to Scotland 2-3 years back, and sure enough, the holes bear a distinct resemblance, right down to a two-tiered green (although the green at Piping Rock is much more pronounced).

I never saw Macdonald mention Scotscraig in writing, nor attribute the idea for the hole at Piping Rock to anywhere, but it does make me think that he had a few up his sleeve which he never let on.  Lundin Links (the part that used to be part of Leven) has another ... the very next hole after the "Leven" hole is almost certainly the model for the 16th at National ... and for the fourth hole at Old Macdonald!

Tom, I have played Lundin Links several times and 36 one day at NGLA, and I honestly cannot think of a hole at Lundin that has an uphill fairway or hidden punchbowl green anything like #16 at NGLA.  Which Lundin hole are you thinking of?   If it's current #17, that's not much of a punchbowl, is it?

[TEPaul]

Jim Kennedy:

As is not that unusual I really don't know what you are referring to or implying in your Post #13. But if it's George Bahto's mention on here that a hole at Craigshead was the inspiration to Macdonald for his 13th hole at Piping Rock I know what you mean. And then Doak's post #10 confirming it and some details is amazing. If Piping Rock knows this I would be surprised but the thing that impresses and educates me most about what Doak said is that is is clearly a hole that inspired Macdonald to do one so similar over here but yet he never seemed to admit it anywhere or at any time.

I wonder if that was because that famous newspaper or Magazine poll where Macdonald got most all his template holes from never even considered that hole at Craigshead.

Macdonald just never ceases to fascinate me----he was probably into consensus first from others because that sells and it has instant backup. With his own "unpresupported" opinions he apparently didn't see any real reason to admit to some of them without some preceding consensus backup first.

[TEPaul]

Jerry Kluger:

That is very explanatory and well put. Pete Dye most certainly never just got in someone else's parade and marched to their drummer, did he?

[George_Bahto]

When I get a chance I'll post, side by side, the two greens - PR and Scotscdraig. It's amazing how similar they are.

Years ago I contacted Scotscraig, sending them a picture of PR 13th green. They could not believe there was another one like theirs

It is their 4th hole and is their feature hole.


I think PR 13 is even higher than Scotscraigs 4th

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jim Kennedy:
As is not that unusual I really don't know what you are referring to or implying in your Post #13.

After reading your reply I'd say you did.

I was also trying to convey the idea that information comes from many sources, and it's value shouldn't be gauged by who dug it up or how they obtained it, it should be respected for it's content.


That's an interesting question concerning Macdonald, but he doesn't strike me that as the type of guy who needed a consensus before going ahead with his plans.

[Adam Clayman]

Mac, I've got a good one for you. I was visiting Jim Thompson's Angels Crossing in Kalamazoo. After putting out on the first hole Jim turns to me and says, "How edenesque". I looked around at the beautiful surroundings, complete with an all natural low lying marsh/pond filled with long reeds and plants of all types and figured he was talking about the Garden of Eden, and I completely agreed. He must've sensed my confusion because he said "no no the green". Heck, I wouldn't know. Redans and Knolls are a bit easier to identify, IMO.

[Jay Flemma]

On an Eden hole, shouldn't there be something behind the green to emulate the banks of the river Eden (don't go over the back on an Eden hole!).

Is 18 at GCGC the best Eden Hole in America?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom P:

I've told Piping Rock that the 13th is derived from a hole at Scotscraig ... I told Jim Albus (who was still the club pro) back the day I heard the story in 1986, and I'm sure we've told them in our more recent consulting there.  I'm not sure they care, though, and I know it isn't in Pete Dye's report from 1985, because I wrote the final version of that.

Bill M:

The 17th at Lundin Links is the hole I'm referring to.  You're right that the green is not too similar, but the tee shot is almost exactly the same, once you consider that Macdonald knew the hole from the 1870's when it took a great drive to get over the little hump 175 yards off the tee, and you couldn't get past the spot where the fairway falls off hard left and hard right.  The 16th at National (and the 4th at Old Macdonald) are just scaled-up versions of that ... the hole at Old Macdonald is a bit closer to it, actually, with the bunkers on the right detached from the slope.

[Jim_Kennedy]

While we're waiting for the side-by-side photos from George: here's the Strokesaver page of the hole at Scotscraig:

[Niall C]

Thanks Jim,

Excuse my ignorance but I've never heard of a Knoll hole. I've played Scotscraig but frankly can't remember no. 4. Before we give all the credit to Scotscraig for providing the inspiration, do we know if there are any others about in the UK that MacDonald might have copied ?

Niall