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Mike Cirba

Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« on: April 13, 2010, 10:35:11 AM »
Joe Bausch posted this on Ed Oden's "Maps" thread yesterday.

It appears to be a course that pre-dated Devereaux Emmett's "Island Golf Links" on the same property, with much of the nine-hole course located around today's 1st, 2nd, 17th, and 18th holes.

Did anyone ever know about this prior??   I've never heard mention of anything predating Emmett's work, which was then refined by Travis in the early part of last century.

Is this a discovery?   Is there mention of it in the GCGC's history book??


« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 10:36:57 AM by Mike_Cirba »

Joe Bausch

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Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2010, 12:38:40 PM »
Mike, on the Essex County Country Club (NJ) web page:

http://www.essexcountycc.com/club/scripts/library/view_document.asp?CLNK=1&GRP=8578&NS=PH&DID=11019&APP=80

Is this blurb concerning Findlay and GCGC:

Findlay came East in the mid-1890s, taking the head professional position at Essex County.  During the next few years he designed a number of courses in the Northeast, including the original courses at both Essex Fells and Crestmont (then called Newark Athletic Club), neither of which exist today.  He was a consultant in the design of the Island Golf Links, forerunner of the Garden City Golf Club, one of the top-ranked courses in the country.  Alex was also a highly respected golfer, said to be preoccupied with golf etiquette, who played in a series of exhibition matches with Harry Vardon during the latter's 1900 tour of America.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike Cirba

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2010, 12:42:44 PM »
Joe,

Thanks for the additional info.

Did that article you posted the map from indicate Findlay had designed that nine-holer?

Joe Bausch

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Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2010, 12:48:54 PM »

Did that article you posted the map from indicate Findlay had designed that nine-holer?

Yes, it did. 

Tonight I'll post the entire article on this thread.  That file is on my home computer and I can't, quite frankly, remember how I stumbled upon it!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2010, 02:25:00 PM »
Mike:

In my opinion the club history book treats this particular subject and issue far more comprehensively than whatever that article was.

The history book cites the club's information on the original nine hole "Island Golf Links" from a man named George L. Hubbell who recorded his recollections in 1915 after a fire in 1912 destroyed the records of the Garden City Company that created the original nine hole course you're referring to known originally as "The Island Golf Links." And there is a good diagram of that original nine hole course in the GCGC history book by a man named HB Martin (no date on the diagram of the course).

Hubbell mentioned in his 1915 recollections that initially a committee was formed to consider golf on this site. That committee consisted of (perhaps amongst others) Hubbell, Devereux Emmet, Dr Frederick Gamage and Alex Findlay. But Hubbell goes on to report that when the work of creating and constructing the course was actually begun and undertaken the work was carried out by himself (Hubbell) and Devereux Emmet in 1897.

I believe it may also be true to say that when the original course was created at North Shore by Emmet it was Hubbell who was with him on that project too.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2010, 02:57:55 PM »
Tom, is your version of the club history book the one from 1949?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2010, 04:13:54 PM »
Joe:

No, it's the most recent GCGC history book from 1999 essentially by New York writer Bill Quirin.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2010, 07:42:14 PM »
Here is the relevant part of that earlier article.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2010, 10:08:15 PM »
Joe:

That stick routing in that article is actually not the same nine hole course that is diagramed in the GCGC history book that Hubbell says he and Emmet created in 1897. It is on the same land and some of the holes are in somewhat similar places but others aren't and the sequencing is just about completely different.

However, that stick routing and sequencing (Alex Findlay) from that 1896 article does not show up in the recent GCGC history book that I can see at the moment and I suppose it's possible the club today is not all that aware of it. If that were the case it would be a most interesting find on your part. I'll be going up there in the next month or so and I'll take a copy of it with me and ask the club historian if the club is aware of it.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 10:20:58 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2010, 10:32:02 PM »
Mike and Joe:

I would have to say that given the events of 1897 at GCGC----the laying out of the original nine hole course by Hubbell and Emmet that is reflected in the diagram in the GCGC history book---that the truth of that nine hole course (Alex Findlay) in that article above from 1896 is that what you see in that article, including the diagram, was only that---a diagram and a proposed nine hole course---and that particular nine hole routing and sequencing was never more than a plan and not actually built. I don't see how it could possibly have been built because the fact is that nine hole plan was not the same as the course that existed by the spring of 1897 (some of the holes still exist today) as the one that's reflected in that article.

So Joe, go to your room with no supper, or go back to whatever dark corner of a library you do this amazing research in and next time come up with something that no knew about before, that actually GOT BUILT!!!  ;)

And for you Alex the Fin-lay--nice plan and nice try but you didn't get the job that time pal; Hubbie and Devie did! I have even come upon compelling evidence of exactly why they got to do the course and you didn't!
« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 10:48:37 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 09:30:49 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2010, 12:12:43 AM »
Reply #10= ???
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 08:37:44 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2010, 11:41:03 PM »
Is this another example of the romanticization of the amateur one hit wonder golf architect? In most of these cases you'll find an experience man lurking in the shadows.

Mike Cirba

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2010, 07:04:37 AM »
Tom MacWood,

I don't think I'll ever understand your thinking.

On the Glen Ridge thread, with very sketchy evidence, you're ready to give another itinerant early golf teaching and clubmaking professional...Robert Thomson...design credit for that course, without any evidence he had any course design or building experience prior.

He very well may have, but I could find no evidence that he had anything to do with any prior designs.

Yet, while you give Thomson a pass, you suspect that a fervent amateur and man of leisure who travelled extensively overseas like Dev Emmett couldn't possibly have done Island Golf Links without Findlay??!?!

C'mon Tom.   ::)  
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 07:33:42 AM by Mike_Cirba »

TEPaul

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2010, 09:22:57 AM »
"Is this another example of the romanticization of the amateur one hit wonder golf architect?"


The romanticization of the amateur one hit wonder golf architect??  ??? ::)

No, of course it isn't. The reality of that early time when those significant amateur architects who produced the likes of Myopia, GCGC, Oakmont, NGLA, Merion, Pine Valley et al is that they were just about all very good golfers, consequently they were either asked by their clubs or they took it upon themselves to design and create those courses that are attributed to them that have remained so famous and well respected architecturally and otherwise.

That thread is simply an acknowledgement of that reality which is the way they were looked at and referred to back then in print and otherwise-----eg "experts."

For people on here to try to deny that or rationalize that fact and reality away somehow is ridiculous and a misreading and misunderstanding of the actual and factual history of that time. This is what particularly the likes of you and David Moriarty have tried to do on here with certain of them; it's interesting to me that you both seem to make an exception of Macdonald (just one of a number of very good "amateur/sportsmen" architects from that early era) this way.

The proof in the pudding of your misunderstanding and rationalization is that the written records from that time is absolutely rife with them being referred to that way. To rationalize away that fact or to deny it the two of you have to constantly claim that everything that was said by anyone and everyone back then is either a lie, some example of hyperbole or some concerted attempt on the part of numerous people to construct some factually inaccurate "legend" or whatever. At this point it seems pretty obvious that virtually no one believes either of you or your distorted logic. That's basically what ultimately happens when bad analysis is submitted to comprehensive peer review----eg those who keep trying to foist it on us lose their credibilty.


"In most of these cases you'll find an experience man lurking in the shadows."


I think your confusion on that point is your misunderstanding of perhaps who some of those people were you refer to as 'an experience man' and exactly what they did and probably didn't do. In many cases they were the contractors or construction foremen, greenkeepers, club professionals et al. It was a pretty stratified world back then that way (socially and culturally) compared to our world today but you probably don't realize that or are unwilling to admit it for some reason. Was it politically correct that way back then the way we think of it today? Of course not; nevertheless that was the reality whether we like it or not.

Those ones I've singled out and referred to as the "amateur/sportsmen" architects were not the types to go out there and take off their suits and get their hands dirty----eg they hired people to do that. But they were the idea men and conceptualizers largely responsible for the designs and if you don't understand that or fail to acknowledge the reality of it back in that early era, then you don't know much about the history of that time and you're a pretty poor historical analyst with golf course architecture of that time, in my opinion. But I think you already knew that.

 







TEPaul

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2010, 09:28:10 AM »
"Yet, while you give Thomson a pass, you suspect that a fervent amateur and man of leisure who travelled extensively overseas like Dev Emmett couldn't possibly have done Island Golf Links without Findlay??!?!"


Mike:

Has Tom MacWood actually said that or implied it? Maybe he did and I missed it or maybe he might try to imply it but the reality with what Alex Findlay actually did for GCGC I'm pretty certain has just been proven by Joe Bausch (that 1896 Findlay drawing) as well as by the club's history book (The recollections of George L. Hubbell).

Maybe you all missed that on this thread. Should I go over the details of it again?


TEPaul

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2010, 09:53:29 AM »
Tom MacWood:

I think, and I think you probably realize at this point, that the list is getting much longer on here of those who think you have a real agenda! And I think the list has gotten much longer of those who realiize what your agenda is.

You and I have spoken about this in the past or at least I have tried to get you to come forward with what your agenda really is because as you probably know or should know by now, I happen to agree with a good deal of it and I think it should become a very important subject and thread on here and be discussed thoroughly.

But you continue to dodge it (your own good agenda) for some odd reason.

Loosely I would say it is that there were a good deal of unfairnesses and perhaps "PC" stratifications (culturally and socially) back in that day generally and the world of golf and golf architecture was no exception.

But the way to deal with a factual and scholarly analysis of it is not to try to distort the realities of what some of those "amateur/sportsmen" architects did and contributed to the evolution of golf course architecture back then to try to build up the reputations of those who worked hard for them and very likely made some very significant contributions despite the less than prominent rolls they were were perceived as having back then when it came to architectural attribution.

To do that, in my opinion, is to basically flip-flop the reality of that time with the consequence being the reality of that time and those people becomes no more clear to us and probably much less so.

Do you want to come forward and finally do this right and start a good thread on the reality of this or should I?

TEPaul

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2010, 10:24:12 AM »
Mike Cirba:

Let's get back to the initial post on this thread you started. Do you think, at this point, you have gotten sufficiently accurate answers to the questions you asked on that intiial post?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2010, 12:33:59 PM »
Inter

"another itinerant early golf teaching and clubmaking professional"


Sorry, I must have struck a nerve. Is your use of the term 'itinerant' meant evoke a negative reaction?

IMO there has been an almost mythological aspect with many of these legends, which has been at the expensive of some other deserving characters. I don't believe it is a zero sum game...giving credit (even if just a little credit) to some of these 'itinerants' does not take away from the legends, and what they accomplished. But I understand yours and TE's sensitivity to this subject.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 12:37:52 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2010, 01:59:32 PM »
Tom,

I'm not sure why you see the word "itinerant" as somehow connoting negativity.   It simply means they travelled regularly for work, and that's simply the way it was for them.  In fact, almost all the northern pros travelled south for the winter, and visa versa, and many shifted from club to club routinely.   It's not an insult, Tom...it's just historical fact.  

What I meant by the usage in this context is that you had no problem believing that a teaching pro who just moved from Knollwood to Glen Ridge laid out the 18 hole course there, yet if I understand your allusion correctly, would question amateur Dev Emmett's qualifications in 1897 to have designed the Island Golf Links without the professional help of Alex Fiindlay.

Exactly what qualifications did Robert Thomson (sp?) have when he came to Glen Ridge that you leaped to the conclusion that he must have designed the original course after the first article I posted that merely stated he "superintended the iimprovements'?

Was it simply the fact that he was a professional golfer that somehow imbued him with more innate architectural skill than a well-travelled amateur golf fanatic like Emmett?   That's certainly what you seem to be arguing.


Mike Cirba

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2010, 04:27:42 PM »
btw Tom...there is no bigger Alex Findlay fan than me, and I'm willing to bet I've played more of his courses than anyone on the planet, but...

...if you think that someone needed professional expertise to come up with the mundane, pedestrian routing exemplifed in that drawing then I thnk a reality check is in order here.

I'm sure the "fences, roads, and lines of small trees" made scintillating hazards.   ::)

Tell us perhaps how you would play the stellar 5th hole?!  ;) ;D

Tom Paul,

Did this nine-holer ever get built?   The article seems to suggest the course already existed.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 04:30:31 PM by Mike_Cirba »

TEPaul

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2010, 06:17:15 PM »
"Tom Paul,
Did this nine-holer ever get built?   The article seems to suggest the course already existed."


MikeC:

I don't believe that nine hole course (diagram) in that 1896 article Joe Bausch produced that seems to suggest it was by Alex Findlay could have existed because in the spring of 1897 a nine hole course by Emmet and Hubbell was opened for play. Findlay's nine hole layout is not the same as Emmet and Hubbell's original nine hole Garden City course.

However, there was apparenly a short nine hole course on the St Paul's School property (some of which is the land immediately next to GCGC) that was apparently created in 1896. I have no idea if Findlay did that one but it is not the same one as the drawing Joe produced which was drawn for the same property on which Emmett and Hubbell built the Island Links course for the Garden City Company in the first half of 1897.

By the way, still today I believe there are two Garden City Golf Clubs and obviously not in the same place.

One thing to always appreciate about Alex Findlay is how early he was here in America and apparently involved in golf and golf architecture. I think he goes back to the 1880s that way. For that reason, I suppose, some refer to him as the real "Pied Piper" of American golf and architecture!
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 06:21:15 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2010, 06:28:32 PM »
"Sorry, I must have struck a nerve. Is your use of the term 'itinerant' meant evoke a negative reaction?

IMO there has been an almost mythological aspect with many of these legends, which has been at the expensive of some other deserving characters. I don't believe it is a zero sum game...giving credit (even if just a little credit) to some of these 'itinerants' does not take away from the legends, and what they accomplished. But I understand yours and TE's sensitivity to this subject."



Tom MacWood:

What sensitivity? And what sensitivity to what subject? Please try to be as explanatory and detailed in your explanation and answers to both questions as you possibly can be.

Thank you.

And I see you seem to have chosen to ignore again the subject and point of my Reply #16 that was directed to you? Why is that? What do you have to hide?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 06:30:14 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2010, 09:21:30 PM »
This is what my thesaurus has for itinerant: wandering, wayfaring, peripatetic, roving, migrant, traveling, nomadic, footloose, vagabond, transient, person on the move, homeless traveler, roamer, rover, nomad.

When you think of men like Thompson, Findlay, Campbell, Barker and Dunn do you see gypsies?  
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 09:24:11 PM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Garden City Golf Club's First Course - by Alex Findlay
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2010, 09:34:02 PM »
Tom MacWood:

What sensitivity? And what sensitivity to what subject? Please try to be as explanatory and detailed in your explanation and answers to both questions as you possibly can be.


Are you joking?  
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 09:40:06 PM by Tom MacWood »

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