[Ben Stephens]

Dear GCA,

I am a fan of Alister Mackenzie and have Geoff Shackleford's wonderful book 'Alister Mackenzie's Cypress Point'. It is known that Cypress Point is the best 17 hole course in the the world where 18 is the 'weakest link'.

I have sketched a proposal in Photoshop based on Mackenzie style architecture and to take the 18th hole into the 21st century. I have drawn a new green close to the current 16th tee and open up the view to the Pacific Ocean from the clubhouse to the 16th.
The proposed 18th has a split fairway - the tee shot is a uphill drive to a fairway that slope from right to left. It would be 100 yards longer than the current 18th about 450/460 yards long a more exacting and memorable finish to a beautiful and awesome looking golf course.  

I have added a tee on the 16th to convert it to a short par 4 - this is what Mackenzie originally intended but Marion Hollins changed it to a long par 3 for most golfers it looks like a very hard par 3.





Current layout





Proposed layout



Here is a birds eye aerial view which shows what the hole looks like before and after. There are a lot of tree clearance where the proposed green is.





Currentlayout - birdseye




Proposed layout - birdseye



Cheers
Ben

[TEPaul]

Very interesting. If the club ever did something like that my suggestion to them would be to just leave the old 18th green and approach as an optional 18th.

As to the 18th being a real weak link, obviously Robert Hunter didn't think so, as he said this about it:

"The last hole takes us along a very narrow route back to the clubhouse. This hole will require better play than the others and while it is short, it is amazingly difficult and is, perhaps, in its contours and landscape, the most beautiful hole in the world."

On the other hand, I distinctly remember my first reaction when I stood on the 18th tee for the first time. I said to my caddie: "This one sure is odd looking; it looks like they are asking you to hit the tee shot right into a grove of trees."

[Bill_McBride]

Very interesting. If the club ever did something like that my suggestion to them would be to just leave the old 18th green and approach as an optional 18th.

....or a much needed practice area.

That is a great design proposal by Ben, and appears to create a finisher the equal of Pebble Beach.  I hope someone at the club sees this and is intrigued!

16 could still be played in its current configuration.

[Jim Nugent]

Ben, on your new 16, what is the carry if you play to the left, i.e. as a two-shot hole?  Also, could you try to drive the green, and what is the carry then?  

[Ben Stephens]

TE Paul,

Thanks for comment also forgot to mention that I have kept the old 18th green as an optional 18th for members - the fairway has been cut off that the new 18th takes priority. This way is it an improvement on Mackenzie's work but also retaining most of his original work which Cypress Point prides itself in and Augusta does not.

Cheers
Ben

[Ben Stephens]

Ben, on your new 16, what is the carry if you play to the left, i.e. as a two-shot hole?  Also, could you try to drive the green, and what is the carry then?  

Jim,

Using the ruler off Google Earth
The carry if you play left is around 170yards
The carry to the front part of the green from the new back tee would be around 260 yards.

Cheers
Ben

[TEPaul]

I wonder if any CPC members ever play from the 18th tee to the 16th green. That looks like it might be a pretty cool hole too! 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Hey Ben,

I don't know the course (and therefore the topography that you're heading over) but I love what you've done there with the photoshop... And the principle of it looks interesting... I'd be a little worried about safety walking on and off 16 tees but other than that, it looks great...

As an aside, if I'm ever going to be taken seriously as a GCA, I really need to get up to speed (and creativity) with all of this current software... I'm missing a trick at the moment, that's for sure...

[Scott Warren]

I have added a tee on the 16th to convert it to a short par 4 - this is what Mackenzie originally intended but Marion Hollins changed it to a long par 3 for most golfers it looks like a very hard par 3.

Didn't Hollins have that debate with Raynor, and when MacKenzie came on board he agreed with and went with her preference for a one-shotter?

[Jim Colton]

For Ben's next trick, he'll pump some Botox injections into the Mona Lisa

I think they should leave the 16th as is.  The 18th is an interesting proposal though.  How long is the proposed hole as configured?  I wonder if it could be shorter and still have some of the same characteristics.  It looks like the 16th tee might be a firing range from missed approaches on 18.

Are there any restrictions for chopping down ancient cypress trees?

[Ben Stephens]

Very interesting. If the club ever did something like that my suggestion to them would be to just leave the old 18th green and approach as an optional 18th.

....or a much needed practice area.

That is a great design proposal by Ben, and appears to create a finisher the equal of Pebble Beach.  I hope someone at the club sees this and is intrigued!

16 could still be played in its current configuration.

Bill,

Thanks for your comment.

Yes 16 can play in its current configuration as a long par 3 (Hollins Tee) but also gives the club an option of playing it as a short par 4 (Mackenzie Tee) which suits us average golfers but also be great TV golf if there was a pro tournament there. Gives the club more flexibilility.

Cheers
Ben

[TEPaul]

"....or a much needed practice area."


Bill:

CPC doesn't need a practice area. Most of those members get their pre-round practice by sort of strolling around the course aimlessly with their corgis and such.

[Ben Stephens]

I have added a tee on the 16th to convert it to a short par 4 - this is what Mackenzie originally intended but Marion Hollins changed it to a long par 3 for most golfers it looks like a very hard par 3.

Didn't Hollins have that debate with Raynor, and when MacKenzie came on board he agreed with and went with her preference for a one-shotter?

Scott,

It was not Raynor - it was Ms Hollins discussion with Mackenzie that convinced him that it should be a par 3 according to Shackleford's book. Raynor died in 1926 his plans never went past the preliminary routing stages.

Cheers
Ben

[TEPaul]

"Didn't Hollins have that debate with Raynor, and when MacKenzie came on board he agreed with and went with her preference for a one-shotter?"


Scott:

As to who was there when Marion Hollins apparently hit that famous brassie to the proposed green site seems still somewhat wrapped in mystery but it sounds to me like it was Raynor.

Of course, there are others who think that story is totally apocryphal like Pat Mucci. He doesn't think Marion was capable of hitting a shot 210 yards in the air back then. But as usual Pat is full of hot air and he doesn't know about Marion like I know about Marion!  

Ben:

Keep reading Shackelford's section on the 16th and you will see it looks like Marion Hollins had that discussion with Raynor and hit that shot with him there. Of course eventually Mackenzie had to approve it too as at that point Raynor was dead.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think the discussion over 16 is redundant... Either way, that's the small fry...

Can anyone provide a photo from the current 18th tee?... I'd love to see the lay of the land...

[Adam Clayman]

Since Tom mentions the make-up of the membership, I think it's germane to Ben's proposed change. And that is the long uphill climb to the clubhouse from the proposed new green. How far is it?

Since there probably are not any 20 or 30 yr. olds as members, I suspect the long trek won't fly with the membership.

[Jim Colton]

I think the discussion over 16 is redundant... Either way, that's the small fry...

Can anyone provide a photo from the current 18th tee?... I'd love to see the lay of the land...

[Scott Warren]

"Didn't Hollins have that debate with Raynor, and when MacKenzie came on board he agreed with and went with her preference for a one-shotter?"


Scott:

As to who was there when Marion Hollins apparently hit that famous brassie to the proposed green site seems still somewhat wrapped in mystery but it sounds to me like it was Raynor.

Of course, there are others who think that story is totally apocryphal like Pat Mucci. He doesn't think Marion was capable of hitting a shot 210 yards in the air back then. But as usual Pat is full of hot air and he doesn't know about Marion like I know about Marion! 

Ben:

Keep reading Shackelford's section on the 16th and you will see it looks like Marion Hollins had that discussion with Raynor and hit that shot with him there. Of course eventuallay Mackenzie had to approve it too as at that point Raynor was dead.

I was reading an old thread the other day, Tom, in which you and Tommy were debating this very point and you said you thought a great thread would be "What if Marion didn't make that shot?". Did you ever start that thread? I couldn't find it.

Ally: A proposal to change one of the most famous holes in golf so that what makes it special is beyond the reach of 99% of golfers from the back tee is "small fry"?

[Ally Mcintosh]

There would be an uphill trek to the clubhouse after finishing the round... that's always a nasty way to finish...

Anyway Ben, I've a bigger issue here... Please tell me that it is a complete coincidence and that you din't notice the following post from yesterday:

Cypress Point - Great course, but given the natural attirbutes it could be even better.  The routing essentially stays, but the bunkering and tie-ins would be modified to take full advantage of the surroundings and the greens would be recontoured to add even more fun.  As for the 18th hole, couldn't it be routed parallel to the 17th with a green pirched by the cliffs somewhat near the 16th tee?
  

If you did and it gave you the idea, tsk tsk.... Credit where credit's due...

[Ben Stephens]

"Didn't Hollins have that debate with Raynor, and when MacKenzie came on board he agreed with and went with her preference for a one-shotter?"


Scott:

As to who was there when Marion Hollins apparently hit that famous brassie to the proposed green site seems still somewhat wrapped in mystery but it sounds to me like it was Raynor.

Of course, there are others who think that story is totally apocryphal like Pat Mucci. He doesn't think Marion was capable of hitting a shot 210 yards in the air back then. But as usual Pat is full of hot air and he doesn't know about Marion like I know about Marion!  

Ben:

Keep reading Shackelford's section on the 16th and you will see it looks like Marion Hollins had that discussion with Raynor and hit that shot with him there. Of course eventually Mackenzie had to approve it too as at that point Raynor was dead.

Whoopsie - I got gazumped here by TE Paul! - my apologies to Scott he was right.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally: A proposal to change one of the most famous holes in golf so that what makes it special is beyond the reach of 99% of golfers from the back tee is "small fry"?

I think so Scott... I don't think it should be changed... And if it is, it's irrelevant to the discussion about the 18th hole which is a far more interesting thing to discuss, rather than getting mired down in another history / attribution merry-go-round..... After all, he's only talking about adding a back tee to 16, not eradicating the other tees...

[Ben Stephens]

There would be an uphill trek to the clubhouse after finishing the round... that's always a nasty way to finish...

Anyway Ben, I've a bigger issue here... Please tell me that it is a complete coincidence and that you din't notice the following post from yesterday:

Cypress Point - Great course, but given the natural attirbutes it could be even better.  The routing essentially stays, but the bunkering and tie-ins would be modified to take full advantage of the surroundings and the greens would be recontoured to add even more fun.  As for the 18th hole, couldn't it be routed parallel to the 17th with a green pirched by the cliffs somewhat near the 16th tee?
  

If you did and it gave you the idea, tsk tsk.... Credit where credit's due...

[/quote]


I never seen that comment and its nice that others are on a similar wavelength but its how the idea/design is implemented - I have tried to image how Mackenzie would do the 18th if the green was in this location. This is my intepretion of a risk and reward 'Mackenzian' hole. This is the most obvious location if the 18th was to be extended.

I am sure Wade has his own ideas of where the bunkers, how wide the fairway and what shape the green and where the forward tee should be.

Cheers
Ben

[TEPaul]

Yes, Ben Stephens, when it comes to some of the finer points on historical research you danged well better take your hands outta your pockets and stay on your toes or I will GAZUMP you and your Whoopsies in a New York second!!

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ah yeah Ben, I'm only teasing really... Seeing as we're all about attributions around here, I'll give Wade the routing and let you be the detail man...

Would still love to see a photo from 18 tee...

[Scott Warren]

Would still love to see a photo from 18 tee...

See reply #16.

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