I must put buggy paths in

[Rob Rigg]

Adrian,

I thought you said that 90% of your golfers walk? I don't understand how those golfers not being able to take a cart during the winter would take 7% out of your 9% revenue stream? Maybe I misunderstood the original scenario.

I am surprised to read that most golfers don't think cart paths are a scar on the landscape - i played at Kapalua with a card carrying cart golfer and he said the one downside was how ugly they looked and ruined the landscape - Pebble Beach being the prime example.

Jeff,

While all golfers should have access to golf - whether able to walk, handicapped or obese - I hope we don't get to a point in the UK (the US is a essentially a lost cause) where lawyers decide that clubs should have to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds to lay down concrete so the 1% (?) of handicapped golfers and 69% of overweight/lazy golfers can take a cart during the winter.

KBM,

You make a great point - the problem is that Americans don't see golf as exercise. I have received numerous emails from golfers around the country who have told me about how golf - and walking when they play - has significantly improved their fitness to the point where they can run 5k events or even half marathons. The exercise that you get from walking 18 is that good a foundation. Maybe over time more golfers will realize the fitness - and experience benefits of walking. Sometimes it is a good idea not to run that 3.5 miles before playing

[Mike Nuzzo]

Jeff,
I thought you were a licensed golf course architect? 

I don't think the cart traffic of handicapped golfers would require paths.
Does the ADA say that they get to play in the rain?
I hope not.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Brett,

If you don't want to look at concrete paths then put them in at a height that allows you to rake a few inches of sand over them. A few directional stakes or ropes can drive the traffic pattern. You'd need a bit of maintenance but it would be invisible.

If that doesn't work for you there are permeable systems like these:

http://www.invisiblestructures.com/technical_specifications.html

[Jeff_Brauer]

Rob,

Please excuse my USACentric post.  But, the US is a lost cause.

Mike,

touche! I have tried to get Golf Industry to change my tag line a few times, but it never seems to stick. 

The ADA does say they can play in the rain.  And the Feds argue that supers can't keep wheelchairs off the greens in wet conditions because they aren't any heavier than machines used to mow greens.  The notion that trained personel are running the mowers carries little weight, however, even the Feds agree that wheelchair users have no right to rut up the green solely to provide them access, any more than any other golfers behavior allows them the "right" to tear up the golf course.

Now, if you were a licensed golf course architect, you would know all that!

[Peter Pallotta]

Good and interesting thread.  OT, but it strikes me that this issue is about how one handles change/potential change. That is, do you say: Having more and more carts on golf courses around the world is not an inevitability, and we need to keep arguing for and promoting as minimal a use of carts and cart paths as possible; or do you say: The use of carts and cart paths is only going to increase and become more wide spread in the years to come, and so our job as keepers of the flame/faith is to argue for and promote the most aesthetically-pleasing and lowest-impact use of cart paths possible. A difficult question - to the 'purists' the 'realists' will look like 'sell-outs', while to the 'realists' the 'purists' are in fact 'paving the road to hell with good intentions'. A tough choice for anyone who cares and works in the industry. I don't envy you folks.

Peter  

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,

I thought you said that 90% of your golfers walk? I don't understand how those golfers not being able to take a cart during the winter would take 7% out of your 9% revenue stream? Maybe I misunderstood the original scenario.

I am surprised to read that most golfers don't think cart paths are a scar on the landscape - i played at Kapalua with a card carrying cart golfer and he said the one downside was how ugly they looked and ruined the landscape - Pebble Beach being the prime example.


rRob - firstly I think most people dont think or care anything like the 1500 on here, you must factor in that you, me and the other 1498 are nuts/passionate/over the top...I was never a fan on riding, I played 18 at Spanish Bay in the morning and 18 at Pebble in the afternoon, we walked SB and wanted to walk Pebble but were told we had to ride, we even offered to pay for the cart but still walk, it was a no no. I did not enjoy driving around the paths and walking across fairways with 3 clubs although I would not have said their look affected my thoughts of the course, I think to almost everyone they dont figure into the equation for their look.
Re the 7% revenue stream, when you lose a member you lose revenue, these people are going to join another course because they can take a cart and what often happens is you lose a the group of 4 that play together. We make about 9% of turnover (not investment) so I dont really want to lose a 7% stream, I am figuring I can pay for the paths with the extra winter revenue that I am not collecting over 5 years so its a goodish business plan

[Bradley Anderson]

After one of my assistants took his first superintendents job his first project was continuous paths around the entire course.

The next season he called me on a rain day and asked me my cart status (his was cart paths only). I told him there were no carts allowed on the course today and so I only had 12 rounds. He told me that his status was CART PATHS ONLY and he had 0 rounds.

Z  E  R  O     

The fact is CART PATHS ONLY equates to pretty much the same status as NO CARTS.

[Bradley Anderson]

Let me add that the same people who want more paths are the first to complain about having to stay on them once they are in.

You are better off spending money on drainage.

Also in a lot of areas, where carts do the worst damage, you often have too much shade that has weakened the grass to the point where it can't take the traffic when its wet. So you could also spend some money on tree work before you spend it on paths.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bradley,
Just over a week ago I played a course on a beautifully warm and sunny day, but it was cart paths only. There had been so much rain over the previous two days that even their prolific use of catch basins wasn't enough to drain it effectively.

In this particular instance, a state park/campground/cabins/ lodge/ beach complex, the captive audience was golfing, no matter what.

It was so wet (and I was wish I had a camera, this would have been the perfect thread to post such a photo) that the walkers were using the cart paths to get around.

 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Here is the problem and its a problem that I am sure you have all encountered in your own business's. The same question comes up weekly.... knock on the door
Member " I was wondering when I can take a cart out,"
Me .... WELL ITS HARD TO SAY WITH THE WEATHER, ITS STILL ONY MARCH, BUT APRILISH IS NORMALLY THE TIME
MEMBER " Thing is I have not played since November"
me ... I UNDERSTAND ITS A PROBLEM, BUT IT IS JUST TOO WET, THE COURSE IS BARELY OPEN,
MEMBER "I love this course but I think I might go back to High Park, they have paths there"

If this was an isolated problem I'd take it on the chin but its a growing problem and just one person that wants to ride can mean you losing the whole group to the club that offers the winter carts.

My rationale is I am forced to do it, but I think others will get forced in the UK as time marches on this problem is a grower. I dont see a levy to walkers, the carts must pay for it.

In the UK we continue to play in some very wet conditions, but unless you are on sand or chalk, and most are on clay draining a whole course enough to play with carts is not an option.

Bill we aready have the buggies they are parked up in the winter so are in effect a non- earner. If you lease buggies whist you can do a six month or seven month deal as apposed the whole year, you pretty much rent for six but its double bubble.

They are idle threats, they are genuine plea's and the "i aint playing if i cant take a buggy" is very real. The real sadness is that most clubs in the UK are 90% walkers, but the have an average age of say 55. The just over 40s brigade are much more I wanna ride and thats where I see the not so rosey future in 10-15 years time.

The PLUS side.. it might generate some work for archies. :O)

Garland - I take your point but its a minority one.

Tom - We call those guys the Pickleheads, they are off a production line and usually have no real idea of the real world.

This may sound unrealistic, but do you really want these people playing at your club?  Anyone who will only play golf in a cart is not serious about their golf, and I do not think I would want to be a member at a club where people are not serious golfers.  Unless they physically have a difficult time walking a course, someone who refuses to play anything but cart golf has no respect for the traditions of the game.  They probably do not understand the etiquette of the game either.

I love how he says "I haven't played since November" like it is his fault.  Unless he is physically incapable of walking the golf course, this is no fault but his own.  It is an OUTDOOR SPORT for goodness sake.  Why doesn't he take up bowling or watching TV if he doesn't like get physical exercise on a course that might be a bit muddy?

I get flak from my friends who think golf is not a sport.  Their main reasoning?  YOU CAN PLAY IT IN A CART.  Carts are an embarrassment to the game, and no accommodations should be made for them.  Again, the only exception is if someone is physically unable to walk.

I have met many people who are cart golfers, but I have only met a few who have so little love for the game that they will only play it in a cart.  For every person like this, there are probably more who put a premium on walking golf.

I would say, I OBJECT to tee-to-green cartparths.  Let the cart-only guys go.  If you establish your club as one that promotes walking, you will find a niche and not worry about losing golfers.

JC - I think a course run like that woud really amplify its chances of going bust. The real fact is that only a very small percentage object to them, in the UK not many use them. The last four or five people to ask about winter cart use all cant walk the course, they have back problems or leg problems, even a lot of sport injurys, knee replacements etc make a 6 mile walk too much.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian

How many carts does teh club have now?

I get the impression you are gearing up for 10 years time.  I know the Players is a new style club with some members, but a very much pay and play feel to it and you are thinking this style will become much more popular in the coming years as well.  Perhaps you are right and that carts at a course like this could make the difference.  However, if your concept of the future of golf doesn't pan out, you are saddled with a cart culture which may not so intriguing to many golfers; members, visitors and societies.  You could find yourself competing for a much smaller segment of the market.  Depending on how much you rely on cart revenue now, this could be a much more risky move than you think.  I get around quite a bit in England, and there are VERY few courses I see with a cart culture.  In fact, I can only think of one, The Warwickshire, and they don't have many carts, yet the paths are a problem which add to drainage problems.  If it were me, I would explore long term drainage issues first and foremost before spending money on anything else.  A dry course will bring in more business than any other single thing a club can do.  Sure, it costs a ton, but spread over time it is well worth it.

Ciao

Sean we have 18 carts, typically they get used for 7 months and are parked up for 5, we allow the carts to roam but you cant when its wet and I dont think you can drain a typical course well enough to allow buggies 365, you simply need a sandy soil and subsoil structure and that cant be bought. You are right when I am highlighting that I think this may be a small problem now but will grow into a bigger one in say 10 years, but I think the cart culture will grow as the golfers new to the game seem to ride more than the over 55s at our club who started playing say 20-30 years ago.

[Bruce Katona]

Adrian: we used to budget $250,000 for a wall to wall cart path system, with little curbing (which really is required around high traffic tee and green locations.  That may be more now due to the price of either concrete or asphalt.

You do get additional play on soggy days with paths as the customers can go out and play.  Where a course can make out is getting an outing out on a soggy day, but playing cart path only..  An outing is a huge revenue generator on a slow weekday and these are events you never want to cancel.

I have to believe there are areas of your facility that could hold up without paths for a few years.  You could probably do a 3 year plan on path installation, paving and getting some drainage in the wettest areas year 1 and going to less soggy areas year 2 and finishing year 3.  3 year cap ex improvements show the members your reinvesting into "their course" as a good owner.  That and getting the bunkers to drain and growing a bit more grass on the tees in the shade are the "hot buttons" for most members.

Best of luck.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Bruce I think $250,000 is probably about the same number converted here in the UK too. Our course is about 70% pathed now, so its not going to be lots for me to finish the rest, say $80,000 and I get cart rental for another 5 months, what I can guarentee is that a visiting party will use our facility over anothers in the winter period because they are assured they can use a cart.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

How many carts does teh club have now?

I get the impression you are gearing up for 10 years time.  I know the Players is a new style club with some members, but a very much pay and play feel to it and you are thinking this style will become much more popular in the coming years as well.  Perhaps you are right and that carts at a course like this could make the difference.  However, if your concept of the future of golf doesn't pan out, you are saddled with a cart culture which may not so intriguing to many golfers; members, visitors and societies.  You could find yourself competing for a much smaller segment of the market.  Depending on how much you rely on cart revenue now, this could be a much more risky move than you think.  I get around quite a bit in England, and there are VERY few courses I see with a cart culture.  In fact, I can only think of one, The Warwickshire, and they don't have many carts, yet the paths are a problem which add to drainage problems.  If it were me, I would explore long term drainage issues first and foremost before spending money on anything else.  A dry course will bring in more business than any other single thing a club can do.  Sure, it costs a ton, but spread over time it is well worth it.

Ciao

Sean we have 18 carts, typically they get used for 7 months and are parked up for 5, we allow the carts to roam but you cant when its wet and I dont think you can drain a typical course well enough to allow buggies 365, you simply need a sandy soil and subsoil structure and that cant be bought. You are right when I am highlighting that I think this may be a small problem now but will grow into a bigger one in say 10 years, but I think the cart culture will grow as the golfers new to the game seem to ride more than the over 55s at our club who started playing say 20-30 years ago.

Adrian

To some degree you are counting chickens before the eggs have hatched.  Many golfers (especially visitors), including carters, will not go out if the course is wet enough where trolleys and carts would not be allowed if it weren't for paths.  I believe that in most circumstances courses are self-regulating in terms of playability. If its wet folks stay away.  In any case, you know opinion, carts should be a last resort as a means of attracting business - especially at private courses and the  money is better spent looking after drainage properly.

Ciao

[Jud_T]

Walking is preferrable to Cart Paths Only, particularly if caddies are available....For the guys who ligitimately need a cart, well I don't think cart paths only works either....

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak,

I am with Ryan....how many courses have you built with cart paths?  I know you have built some, and wonder how you square that acceptance with the sermon above!  Now, I happen to believe they were absolutely necessary at a course like Stone Eagle with an aging membership and hilly terrain. I just wonder how many clubs and resorts are specifically targeted at younger golfers who don't want carts.  And if so, how do you keep that demographic the same....shoot a member or force him to quit when he hits 50?

Jeff:

I think there is a big difference between building SOME green-to-tee cart paths some of the time, and building wall-to-wall paths for most all of your projects.  I am trying to remember the last course where I agreed to build wall-to-wall cart paths ... I guess they asked for them at Tumble Creek, and I didn't argue because most of them could be easily hidden in the trees.  

At Stone Eagle, I made the decision that it was better to build a course that most people would inevitably ride, than to not build a course in that setting at all.  It was impractical to suggest that most people would walk there, between the age of the membership and the hills and the well-documented seasonal temperatures there.  However, they aren't wall to wall paths ... we worked harder than we ever have to incorporate the paths into the desert landscape and to minimize paths on the fairways, because it would look so bad from several high vantage points where you can see clear across the course.  I would hazard a guess that Stone Eagle has fewer cart paths than 90% of the other courses in Palm Springs.

If Adrian makes the same argument for his course, that's up to him.  I just think it's especially bad to be setting the example of wall-to-wall paths in the UK, where they are not yet an inevitable plague on golf.  And I did object strongly to the idea of any cart paths at The Renaissance Club, which they did not put in.

I have always accepted the need for some people with medical difficulties to ride ... even the walking-only courses I have built acknowledge that and allow for it.  That is far different than condoning wall to wall paths.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Then get them to select the right cars for the right tracks



Melvyn

[Brent Hutto]

Is there perhaps a hidden question as to the true purpose of the cart paths?

One possible purpose is to avoid ruts, bogs or complete destruction of the course in areas that are bottlenecks of cart traffic and/or particularly vulnerable. The sort of careful parceling out of paved cart paths that Tom Doak is advocating is the responsible approach if one is really protecting the course from otherwise inevitable use of carts.

The other possibility is that the motivation for paths is to encourage more cart golf. In that case doing it only here and there may be viewed as insufficient. Nothing screams "Take A Cart!" like an unbroken ribbon of concrete throughout every part of the golf course, after all.

Visible, ubiquitous cart paths would seem to me as a clear advertisement for the desirability of cart use over walking. So we must consider the possibility that the owners of the course desire exactly that, no matter what other excuses they may use to sell the damned things.

[Tim Nugent]

A couple of decades ago, a veteran GC builder remarked, "I fear we're at a point where golf paths have to be designed around.  Starting from scratch is much easier that after-the-fact.  A majority of every punchlist is centered around CP issues. Don M. gave you CP-101.  Here are a couple of others:  Pay attention to cross-slope - flat paths, even going slightly up or down hill don't drain well and are apt to have bird-baths.  If you place gravel under them for a base, be aware that it will act as a drainage conduit so you'ld better extend a drain pipe to the low point to pick it up or it will leak out into the rough  where you will have a perpetual mud hole and never figure out why. (the low points are also the natural on/off points).

Keep the curves slight or the insides will get worn. Drive a pickup truck at 10-15 mph w/door open and use a piant gun to mark left edge.

Think of them as Service Paths for maint rather than buggies.  This will keep them further away - as it should be.

Raise the price of buggy rental to offset.  Pay as you go.  Don't mandate walkers to subsidize.  I had a public course add a $1 surcharge to every cart rental and they put that in a Path Extension fund.

Start at the farthest point out and work back to entrance.  That way you won't tear up good path in the process.

8' min.  Sod the edges, seed never works well.

Adrain, this is a costly endeavor.  You may wish to just let the few out and deal with damage.  Most cart damage is from spinning tires.  Have your mechanic limit their speed to "really slow" like 5 mph which is twice walking speed but less than the 12-15mph the factory sets them at.  Raise the cart fee in winter/spring due to damage.  Most who threaten to go somewhere else will not complain about price and if they do, just let them know it's on them.

Since a gravel base is usually needed, I suggest putting one in first and seeing if you can live with it.  Just make sure you have a tractor and box-blade to run over it once a week to keep it looking neat (it will wash and rut without attention) If you can get asphalt grindings, the darker coler blends better than white or buff stone.  Some clubs have used Red granite chips to blend - it looks pretty nice.

The funny thing is, when CP only, they will probably end up walking more back and forth than if they walked tee to green- but would never believe you.  You will generate a fair amoun of topsoil, so if you plan things properly, you can use it to help hide the fairway side of the path (it has to go somewhere and adjacent is cheapest) and sod the whole endeavor with the sod from the path alignment.

Melvin, cool buggies, I'd play there just to drive one  

[Niall C]

Adrian

It seems to me that the need for cart/buggy paths was built into the design. When you you design and build a course that long and with a number of trecks between greens and tees then it is inevitable that there is going to be an element beyond the trully handicapped that are going to need a buggy if they are going to play, and to try and restrict buggy use to when it is dry in this country, well...enough said.

Why don't we have a buggy culture in the UK ? The answer is surely because the bulk of UK courses are still over 40 or 50 years old and were built in a different era when golf courses were shorter and tees were required to be next to the previous green. The only comparable course in Scotland that I can think of, actually there are a few mainly around St Andrews, but the one I was going mention was the Dukes course. I played the old Dukes course 20 odd times and all but the first half a dozen times I used a buggy, I had to. I was a fit lad back then and my playing partner a lot of the time was a scottish decathlete champion but we still got a buggy because otherwise it was a slog. It let us enjoy a very good course. So I say don't be ashamed to build cart paths if it allows your course to be more "playable", after all there are some on here who seem to advocate the need for 80 yard wide fairways because it tends to get windy.

Niall

[Jeff_Brauer]

There is no doubt in my mind that this economy will force us to rethink the idea of partial paths.  In reality, while everyone congreates at green and tee, they spread through the fw so much that most of the path is not used very often.  They could put float tires on carts, reduce weight through use of alloys perhaps, etc. 

Is there any anti wheel spin technology that could be applied? 

GPS already can keep a cart from driving off a cliff.  How much more would it be to add moisture sensors (soon to be common in irrigation systems anyway) in low areas and use that and GPS to keep carts off wet areas on rainy days?

I suspect you could, in the very near future, get the same turf protection results in ways other than pouring more pavement.

[Tim Nugent]

Jeff, just got back from St. Pete and saw a grandma in a wheelchair that had these big balloon tires going up and down the beach.
Plus, I saw a prototype a few years back for a golf Segway (wonder what ever happened there?).  Personally, I would liike to see more in the way of single seaters (that could carry multiple bags).  I think many ride because there is an open, paid for seat available.

[JNC Lyon]

Tom Doak,

I am with Ryan....how many courses have you built with cart paths?  I know you have built some, and wonder how you square that acceptance with the sermon above!  Now, I happen to believe they were absolutely necessary at a course like Stone Eagle with an aging membership and hilly terrain. I just wonder how many clubs and resorts are specifically targeted at younger golfers who don't want carts.  And if so, how do you keep that demographic the same....shoot a member or force him to quit when he hits 50?

50?  Well, let's see, my Dad just turned 56, and he walks and carries EVERY ROUND HE PLAYS!!!  Plenty of his friends do the same. That statement is so inaccurate and insulting that it makes me cry inside.

I just do not understand how people cannot be in a "mental state to walk 18 holes."  What does that even mean?  You do not have to run.  You do not have to endure forced physical pain.  It is a walk in the park for three hours, if you play the game correctly.  If not, then why do real golf clubs want them there?  I just do not see cart golf as real golf, like some people on this site.

Frankly, I'm so surprised that the anti-cart contingent is getting so much opposition here.  After a three-day weekend at Deal and an extra day at Worplesdon, I could not even imagine a day in carts.  Cart golfers miss so much of the experience of golf.  Climbing ng over the rumpled fairway of a links course and trekking through the heather of London-area classic are things that only the walking game can provide.  Standing on the 7th tee at Deal, sun at my back and facing the sea, feeling like the only soul in the world, this feeling is something that only golf can provide.  You could NEVER, EVER, EVER get this feeling in golf cart, EVER.  It is not golf to play that way.  Those who play in carts cannot fully enjoy the game.  They can never get the feeling, as I did on my Saturday afternoon, that they are closer to nature and therefore closer to God.

Economics?  WHO CARES.  Golf is not about business and making money.  It is about escaping from those things and thoroughly enjoying ourselves.  I am pro-capitalism and pro-business in every part of my life.  Golf is the one exception.  It is the one area where we should cling to tradition and enjoyment.  Bottom line?  Pragmatism?  These things just bastardize the one game that I hold dear to my heart.  You want to compromise the traditions of the game and give into people who know nothing of such things?  Well, you are compromising the thing that I love the most.

[Jeff_Brauer]

JCNLyon,

"Economics?  WHO CARES.  Golf is not about business and making money."

Now who is being so inaccurate?

I appreciate guys like your Dad and other seniors. Golf Clap for them. Sadly, they are the exception, as statistically about 60% of Americans ride.  We are a lost cause.

I sort of like Tim's idea of a single seater with two bags.  Maybe we can start the ball rolling back by forcing golfers to walk half the time.

I also loved Tom Doak's way of playing Crystal Downs - walk the front nine, but take the cart up the hillier back nine.  Sometimes, we need to think something other than all or nothing!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tom Doak,

I am with Ryan....how many courses have you built with cart paths?  I know you have built some, and wonder how you square that acceptance with the sermon above!  Now, I happen to believe they were absolutely necessary at a course like Stone Eagle with an aging membership and hilly terrain. I just wonder how many clubs and resorts are specifically targeted at younger golfers who don't want carts.  And if so, how do you keep that demographic the same....shoot a member or force him to quit when he hits 50?

50?  Well, let's see, my Dad just turned 56, and he walks and carries EVERY ROUND HE PLAYS!!!  Plenty of his friends do the same. That statement is so inaccurate and insulting that it makes me cry inside.

I just do not understand how people cannot be in a "mental state to walk 18 holes."  What does that even mean?  You do not have to run.  You do not have to endure forced physical pain.  It is a walk in the park for three hours, if you play the game correctly.  If not, then why do real golf clubs want them there?  I just do not see cart golf as real golf, like some people on this site.

Frankly, I'm so surprised that the anti-cart contingent is getting so much opposition here.  After a three-day weekend at Deal and an extra day at Worplesdon, I could not even imagine a day in carts.  Cart golfers miss so much of the experience of golf.  Climbing ng over the rumpled fairway of a links course and trekking through the heather of London-area classic are things that only the walking game can provide.  Standing on the 7th tee at Deal, sun at my back and facing the sea, feeling like the only soul in the world, this feeling is something that only golf can provide.  You could NEVER, EVER, EVER get this feeling in golf cart, EVER.  It is not golf to play that way.  Those who play in carts cannot fully enjoy the game.  They can never get the feeling, as I did on my Saturday afternoon, that they are closer to nature and therefore closer to God.

Economics?  WHO CARES.  Golf is not about business and making money.  It is about escaping from those things and thoroughly enjoying ourselves.  I am pro-capitalism and pro-business in every part of my life.  Golf is the one exception.  It is the one area where we should cling to tradition and enjoyment.  Bottom line?  Pragmatism?  These things just bastardize the one game that I hold dear to my heart.  You want to compromise the traditions of the game and give into people who know nothing of such things?  Well, you are compromising the thing that I love the most.

You must accept popular opinion. Golf has to be treated as a business for some in order to survive and deliver the things youlove and  get out of golf.

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