[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I keep coming back to the feeling that Desert forest is so superior to all other courses in the Desert. why is it not the course and style that all others follow. I understand extreme land situations like Stone Eagle etc are different but so many go with what could be described as Florida comes to the desert. Most is so average without distinction other than well manicured and plenty of fauna.

[Jud_T]

Because the vast majority of them are housing developments first, golf courses second?

[Matt_Ward]

Tiger:

Have you played Whisper Rock ?

Have you played Outlaw at Desert Mtn ?

I can name a few others that are quite solid in so many ways.

The Desert Forest lovefest is well known but it stretches the point to broad brush the top tier other desert courses and say they are considerably lacking.

[Matthew Petersen]

I'm not at all sure what you mean by "Florida comes to the desert"?

And what specifically about Desert Forest do you want to see more desert courses imitate? I often see it referred to as the "first" true desert style golf course that others followed from. Prior to DF, even Phoenix area courses were built like parkland courses with grass and trees everywhere (Papago, Wigwam, Biltmore, Phoenix CC, etc).

[Matthew Sander]

Here is a very strong second for Matt Ward's mention of Outlaw at Desert Mountain. I've played a decent amount of golf in the area (including Desert Forest) and Outlaw is the most fun, and quite unique. I believe they do not overseed and they keep it firm and fast, which allows the course to play as it is designed, with ground options. The bunkers are small but play quite large due to the surrounding feed in slopes coupled with the ff conditions. The course is extremely walkable (when we played a majority of the members were walking), and housing is rarely present. There are no houses within the corridors of the course which lends to the walkability and contiguous routing. There may be a few houses surrounding the perimeter of the property, but not many. If I were a Desert Mountain member, this would be the course (1 of 6) that I would play the most, by far.

[cary lichtenstein]

It's too narrow

[Forrest Richardson]

There are three primary reasons Desert Forest has stood up well:

1. It does not have housing, except along the outside edges. And, even then, it is well back away from the course. My father lived there for several years. You had to be told there was course behind the wall or you would never know.

2. It is a graceful design without abrupt contours and it is also very simple: Elegant shaping and subtle dog-legs.

3. The desert (nature) forms the hazards, not bunkers. The only bunkers are at the greens, and those are used sparingly.


Jack Snyder, with whom I worked for many years, re-did 4-5 greens at Desert Forest. Jack created the third of Arizona's original desert layouts when he added 9-holes to the Red Lawrence nine at the original Boulders. Those were also very graceful layouts.

Later, Jack and I (and Rees) crafted Legend Trail. Our goal there was also grace. Why over-do the design when you have such great edges provided by nature?

[Brian Cenci]

I'd say Desert Forest is not one of my favorites in the Scottsdale area.  I just didn't get it and I don't get why people love it so much.  In my opinion Outlaw and Geronimo at Desert Mountain are better and Whispering Rock & We-Ko-Pa I liked a lot better as well.  I saw it listed pretty high in the rankings, Desert Forest that is, and I just don't see why people like it so much.

-Brian

[Forrest Richardson]

Brian — I tend to agree. It is a timeless course, and quite nice, but I have always had questions as to why it does so well in rankings. I do think it is one of the most important desert courses as it ushered in an era of desert layouts...some great and some not so.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

It may be narrow in spots, but I have a real problem with those who critiicize DF for being too narrow, but have their lovefests with the links courses.  DF is wider than several of the commonly acknowledged great, great links courses.  If the judgement is on fairway witdth, then there must be consistentcy--this would put Engineers, Rustic Canyon in the World top 20 and make RCD, Royal Portrush, Royal St. Goerges out of the top rankings.  Both types of courses deserve recognition.

[Adam Clayman]

Here's a couple of facts I learned the day I played there.
1) Phil Mickelson goes to DF when he wants to seriously work on his driving game Why? Becuase there's no other course in the Desert that demands the shot shapes and distance accuracy.
2) When the club has competitions against other clubs and those club teams come to DF, the visiting team never play to their handicap.

DF is not an easy course. It's not a hard course. It doesn't dictate the shot, allowing the player to pick his spots.

To me, that could easily be a reason why it has not been treated as "The Model".

 Let's face it, the modern golfer wants to think he's being challenged, but when the challenge is too great, or too sophisticated, it's bad mouthed.

[Tom Yost]

I keep coming back to the feeling that Desert forest is so superior to all other courses in the Desert. why is it not the course and style that all others follow. I understand extreme land situations like Stone Eagle etc are different but so many go with what could be described as Florida comes to the desert. Most is so average without distinction other than well manicured and plenty of fauna.

Let's for the moment, eliminate "the desert" from the equation and ask the question in a more global sense - Is it unusual to find that an old course, built in a different era with a classic feel and a more natural integration with the landscape. might stand apart from the more recent bodies of work created  during the golf boom of the 80's and 90's ?  Was the predominate style of golf development during this period any kinder to other areas than to "the desert?"  Has the new stuff outdone the old stuff in other parts of the country?

Desert Forest is nearly 50 years old.  90% of the golf courses in Arizona have been built post 1980.  During the "dark ages" (as I have repeatedly read on this forum).  When it was both bragging right and sales pitch to announce how many millions of cubic yards of dirt were moved to create the latest & greatest.  Were these types of developments limited to the desert?

What I'm saying is that the dearth of great designs in the desert is mostly a function of the era in which the bulk of the development has occurred.  There is not enough old school in AZ to balance the new.

[Andy Troeger]

Phil Mickelson goes to DF when he wants to seriously work on his driving game Why? Becuase there's no other course in the Desert that demands the shot shapes and distance accuracy.

DF is not an easy course. It's not a hard course. It doesn't dictate the shot, allowing the player to pick his spots.

Adam,
Perhaps its my reading comprehension, but these two statements seem to contradict each other. Personally, I think the first statement is much more accurate than the second.

[Matt_Ward]

It's funny to see certain people throw all AZ golf under the bus with a blanket ignorant statement that only a place like DF is worthy if time and attention. Often when these same folks have been asked what other layouts they have played -- the silence in the retort speaks volumes.

AZ golf has evolved a good bit more than its clueless detractors can understand. No doubt there are a profusion of layouts that are overly simplisitic run-of-the-mill typical gated community layouts that are quite predictable.

However, there are more than a few layouts that have really added much to the overall sophistication and qualities of the golf that is now possible. If anything is lacking -- it's the critics who need to schedule the time to play the courses mentioned before diving off the high cliff of total cluelessness.

[Adam Clayman]

Andy, I don't think they are contradictory.  The elasticity of DF's designs is it's greatest strength. Allowing every level of player to be challenged in an acceptable manner, versus, the STEREOTYPICAL desert designs that this thread appears to be contrasting. 

[Rob Bice]

I find it difficult to compare so generally - Desert Forest vs. all other desert courses.  A few points as to why I enjoy Desert Forest:

1.  There are a number of holes (1, 2, 5, 7, 9, 13, 14 and 16 come to mind immediately) that offer tremendous risk/reward opportunities from the tee that are laid out directly in front of you.  To me, there is a large strategy compenent from the tee box - distance, angles, preferred landing areas, etc.  Probably more so than some of the modern courses, regardless of location.

2.  While some probably consider 13 way too narrow - it is a straight hole with a very receptive green to all types of second shots.  So, it is a great risk/reward from the tee.  Yes, the typical landing area for a driver is probably the narrowest part of the fairway but the hole doesn't force you to hit driver.  No forced carry and again the green is receptive to longer second shots.

3.  The maintenance of the course - they have rotated overseeding over the years.  When playing fast and firm there is a tremendous amount of strategy on most of the approach shots.  Greens are rather large but deceptive - depending on pin positions, large portions of the greens are probably just as dead as greenside bunkers.

4.  It is very walkable.  A rarity for newer courses these days.

My $0.02 for what its worth.

[Dave Givnish]

Adam - Phil might have done that in the past, particularly when he was at ASU, but I don't think that he's been to DF since before Whisper Rock opened.  

I agree with Forrest's summary.  To me, this is boiling down to a "manufactured" vs. "natural" discussion.  Courses built before the real estate boom here used the land as it was.  The courses in town (the Wigwam courses, Biltmore, AZ CC, Phx CC, and I guess Papago) are nice parkland courses that are flat to gently rolling because they are on the Valley floor.  Desert Forest was up in the hills and was done on a tight budget, so very little earth was moved.  Those are the "natural" courses to me.  

Routing courses through real estate developments changed the game.  Drama and excitement sold real estate, so every course had to outdo the last in their clubhouse and course(s).  Only Estancia and Whisper Rock, I think, have successfully molded the two - but they did it by creating a huge buffer between the homes and the course.  

The newer courses also have to challenged with how to bring their maintenance budgets under control.  Bunker maintenance and water costs are big for these lush operations, especially those that overseed every year. Desert Forest, Talking Stick, and We-ko-pa are pretty simple to maintain and can use a lot less water.

I'm not sure that I understand the love for Outlaw.  The members don't want to play it from all that I hear from DM members and pros.  The play count at Outlaw is a fraction of what they get at the other courses.  Most of the members I've talked about this with say that the green complexes are too far over the top, too hard for the average player to enjoy themselves.  The pros think that the dormant grass is more of the problem.    

[Matthew Petersen]

Adam - Phil might have done that in the past, particularly when he was at ASU, but I don't think that he's been to DF since before Whisper Rock opened.  

Given his driving stats, maybe he should go back!

[Matt_Ward]

Dave:

The reason why no love for Outlaw is that people are too used to having the same predictable "ball will always react uniformily" mindset. Outlaw has no clutter -- allows the run-up shots and is quite walkable. You also have a range of elasticity in terms of its playability. The issue for many pros is that they don't like the random nature of the course -- they simplt want a guaranteed result no matter the execution.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Matt I am surprised you found the Outlaw or any of the Desert Mountain courses worth even discussing here. I have played them all and the most prevelant comment is great clubhouse very average golf. The year toss in suspect maintenance too. The greens at DM were rock hard and the second cut was 2 or 3 inches deep. So all shots, except into uphill slopes, would bounce over and stick on the side of the hill. The fairways were wet which happens at resorts a bit too often but is part of being green. The hard greens and downhill chips back to the green hole after hole gets real old. The only way to hold a green was to airmail the green into the hill and then it would bounce back on. Great green complexes is what separates Df from the rest quality wise. I have not played Whispering rock and hear it is good and the same about Estancia. However none including memebers said they compare to DF.

[Matt_Ward]

Tiger:

You're surprised - why's that?

I can say the same thing for you if you reuly believe thet DF is still heads and shoulders above all others throughout the greater Valley of the Sun area.

I cannot comment on the most recent of maintenance issues -- my last time at Outlaw was several years ago but the firm and fast conditions, challenging greens and range of holes was a good bit more than your assertion that the golf there is nothing more than "very average."

Clearly, you played a different course than I did when the roll of the ball on tee shots and approaches needed to be calculated fully prior to shot execution.

Let's also be real -- the folks who like DF -- likely many of them are either members of that club or have a close connection to it. You are the one who made the assertion that DF is still a good ways beyond what you find in the area. I don't doubt that's the case for the ho-hum average desert layout -- but your homework is lacking in regards to the more recent vintage courses that have emerged.

Frankly, I see the Mickelson / Stephenson effort at the original WR as being the best of the area desert courses. Just a stellar design but because it's not deemed a "classic" by those who prefer older layouts like DF it gets little attention. In many cases you have people pontificating about the "overall" quality of the desert golf experience but when pushed to pronounce the names of key courses they have played the overall portfolio is woefully short so in reality such a pronouncement on what constitutes the overall best really rings hollow to me and likely others as well.

[Tony Petersen]

Matt I am surprised you found the Outlaw or any of the Desert Mountain courses worth even discussing here. I have played them all and the most prevelant comment is great clubhouse very average golf. The year toss in suspect maintenance too. The greens at DM were rock hard and the second cut was 2 or 3 inches deep. So all shots, except into uphill slopes, would bounce over and stick on the side of the hill. The fairways were wet which happens at resorts a bit too often but is part of being green. The hard greens and downhill chips back to the green hole after hole gets real old. The only way to hold a green was to airmail the green into the hill and then it would bounce back on. Great green complexes is what separates Df from the rest quality wise. I have not played Whispering rock and hear it is good and the same about Estancia. However none including memebers said they compare to DF.

Outlaw at Desert Mountain is anything but very average golf... sorry Tiger, but having played it 100+ times, as well as all the other AZ greats many times, I can say with certainty that it is one of the finer designs in AZ. Period. Fast & firm conditions, fantastic use of the land in the routing, walker-friendly, solid green sites, great bunkering throughout, no houses on the property beyond the club facilities... and an absolute bear that beats up the membership daily. And, the reason why Outlaw is the best Staff Course in the entire country

Desert Forest is a great course. But guys, it's really not all that...

... ahh, just kidding. I love DF. The clubhouse/locker-room/grill all reek of the 60's, the simple set-up with the range, chipping and putting is brilliant and the design is just plain fun. And tough. But y'all already knew that...

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