AAC II. Results. Are. In.

[Garland Bayley]

...
I wasn't a fan of Garland's illustration.
I thought it needed more work to be able to compare in detail.
The walks were too long for me and I couldn't tell from the individual sheets the relationship to the next hole.
...

Here are the walking distances edge of green to edge of tee. Are these too long? I know my home course would be roundly criticized here for having tees too close to greens for safety concerns, so I padded the distance a little in my design to enhance safety. Did I go to far?
67
60
50
60
53
25
73
35
40
40
62
31
47
52
27
73
30
Total 825

The routing drawing did not mark the tees, but they were within the area outlined for the whole hole. I would have thought that pretty obvious.

EDIT

My home course totals 971 yards in green to tee walks. It however has 229 between 9 and 10 as you cross a street. I am beginning to think my green to tee walks may be optimal for this set of designs.

Sorry, my having a deadline dropped on me out of the blue rushed my finished product plus I am not much of an artist, and have no idea how Charlie, Jim, Andy, etc. draw so well in Sketchup. That tool is totally foreign to my computer usage experience.

[Alex Miller]

Garland,

I think Mr. Nuzzo couldn't tell your walks were that short from your illustration. The walks on my course were about the same as yours, between 35 and 70 yards. It's funny how that's a criticism for your routing when Nick's had huge separations from some greens to tees. Scale and perspective are likely enhanced by the presentation, and Nick's did a pretty good job of that.

[Andy Gray]

Green to tee walks were one of the things I worked hardest on (after routing the holes). I felt they should be as short as possible, and hopefully not too many uphill. I think across my two courses the average green to tee walk was around 40-45 yds.

Garland, sketchup isn't too hard. But I thought mine looked good until I saw Nick's! I do not know how to cut and fill in sketchup I just drape the holes down and colour them in.

I always look forward to seeing Garland's designs. They are fundamentally solid and really capture fun and strategy at the same time. I loved his idea for last year's design with just the solitary bunker on the course (did you call it gravity golf?). Keep it up Garland!

Andy

[Nick Campanelli]

It's funny how that's a criticism for your routing when Nick's had huge separations from some greens to tees. Scale and perspective are likely enhanced by the presentation, and Nick's did a pretty good job of that.

Alex, once again, next near I will focus on making tighter green to tee connections.  I found myself sacrificing ease of walking between holes to find better angles tee to fairway.  I think it comes down to personal preference.  Some players like to keep the round moving.  I, personally, don't mind the walk between holes to clear my mind and focus on the hole ahead (unless its 229' as Garland pointed out at his homes club!).  Others see long distances between holes as a course built for carts only, which I obviously don't agree with completely. 

I asked M. Nuzzo earlier if the distance between holes would be less of an issue if they were level or downhill compared to uphill, something I was aware or while routing the layout above...I have yet to get his opinion.  Andy Gray also hinted at this in the last post.     

[Tim Nugent]

+/-50 ydss center of green to center of tee is pretty standard.  Each case is particular and the specifics have to be taken into account and adjusted accodingly.  
I'm sure the graphics had something to do with it.  While I diidn't have a problem understanding what Garland was proposing, I was thrown by scale on others.  Not having the ability to scale out distances,, we had to trust the Ol' eyeball method.

Nick, of course one would rather not have long, uphill treks while you can get away with longer downhill ones.  Afterall, we're playing golf, not hiking.  Keep in mind that the average golfer get uncomfortable/distracted hitting an approach when golfers are teeing it up within striking distance.

We try to provide enough separation between hole centerlines (70 yds min) on adjacent holes and a min. of 30 degrees off the tee.  As it is common to fan the up tees towards the outside of the dogleg, this pulls those tee further away from the adjacent hole.

Safety should be your main parameter and getting that to conform to the best spots for greens and tees is somewhat of a puzzel to solve with tradeoffs and compromise.  Many times it's what separates the good from the grreat - knowing what you can get away with and what you can't (or shouldn't).

[Mike Nuzzo]

Garland
Yes those walks are pretty reasonable.
The walk from 1 to 2 is probably the worst because it is to the top of the hill.
Not defining your fairways was the biggest deal breaker for me.
I know I couldn't hit some of those spaghetti straps.
At least Tim gave you a high maintainability score.

Nick
Walks do matter to me - they have to be worth it.
Always going uphill to get a better vantage point is not my preference.
There were no rules here - anyone could have routed the course as if it were for one person and they wouldn't have lost points with me.
The holes didn't seem to be worth the walks between 5-6-7.
You didn't loose any points if there was a long walk to the back tee, but not so much to the middle - 1-2 & 2-3 - and they still weren't short.

Cheers

[Garland Bayley]

...
I know I couldn't hit some of those spaghetti straps.
...

I'm sure you could. All you would have to do is take you putter and tap the ball of the tee. Viola, you have hit a "spaghetti strap".

[Garland Bayley]

I added a fourth judge. I turned ties between 3 and 4 into 3.5 instead of 3, etc. And, I made new totals and placings.
6   1   11   9   3   8   12   10   4   2   13   5   7
3.5   9   13   12   3.5   5   6   2   1   7   10.5   8   10.5
10   3   7   11   1   12   9   2   5   4   8   13   6
8   4   9   5   11.5   6   2   11.5   1   3   13   7   10
27.5   17   40   37   19   31   29   25.5   11   16   44.5   33   33.5

Daryn   11                                 
Alex   16                                 
Jim   17                                 
Nick   19                                 
Gary   25.5                                 
Michael   27.5                                 
Garland   29                                 
Emil   31
Ed   33
Andy   33.5
Will   37
Guy   40
Steve   44.5

You'll never guess who the new judge is.

[Tim Nugent]

garland, didn't you see the post where Judge #2 stated that #1 was the 3 and #5 was a 4?

[Alex Miller]

What's this new judge business? Im not complaining, obviously, but is it for real?

[Charlie Goerges]

Alex, it's not official. The original result still stands.

Now, if it were up to me, you'd all get the grand prize, but the judges have spoken. You should all be proud, you all did a fine job given the limitations.




And thanks to the judges (and other archies) for putting on a real master class here on this and the associated threads. You are nurturing the next generation of designers.

[Philip Spogard]

Charlie,

Compliments for all the hard work you have put into this. I was amazed by the effort not only from the contestants but also from you.

As I am in the middle of moving I do not have much time these days to post individual comments to all participants - but as you know I have individual comments to each layout. I will be happy to provide individual feedback to all interested participants so please send me a PM and I will get back to you all.

My judging was mostly influenced by the individual routings and use of the land. In my opinion the ultimate solutions were the ones which naturally incoorporated all areas of interest within an 18 hole routing. With such an expansive site I looked for a layout routed among - and not over - the contours (unless well explained). Safety, interest, concept, clubhouse and facility locations, aesthetics, degree of realism, etc. were off course also important factors.

Congratulations to you all for producing such fine work - and congratulations to the winner.

Philip

[Garland Bayley]

What's this new judge business? Im not complaining, obviously, but is it for real?

Jeez Alex,

Maybe you aren't the genius I thought. The results were posted by me, and scored my design second jumping me forward several places. I thought most everyone could figure that one out. My judging had Daryn, you, and I within a hairsbreadth of each other, well ahead of the next contestant. Another look at a slightly different time and you could easily have come out on top with the same system.

If anyone else wants to take the time, I would like to see your rankings.

[Garland Bayley]

Charlie,

We haven't seen your co-designer Tom Doak chime in on this years contest. Has the recession abated? Is he working again?

[Nick Campanelli]

I figured I would start a list to keep track of the critique / comment threads for each course.  

Entry 02  |  Ballyneo Golf Club (Jim Colton)
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44267.0/

Entry 04  |  Unnamed (Will Peterson)
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44296.0/

Entry 05  |  Granite Ridge Golf Club (Nick Campanelli)
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44270.0/

Entry 07  |  Bunker Me Links (Garland Bayley)
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44344.0/

Entry 09  |  Rustlers Creek Golf Club (Daryn Solden)
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44268.0/

Entry 10  |  Old Mill Golf Club (Alex Miller)
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44280.new

Entry 12  |  The Recession Club (Ed Oden)
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44273.0/

If others were started that I failed to see, let me know and i'll update.

[Garland Bayley]

...
My judging was mostly influenced by the individual routings and use of the land. In my opinion the ultimate solutions were the ones which naturally incoorporated all areas of interest within an 18 hole routing. With such an expansive site I looked for a layout routed among - and not over - the contours (unless well explained). Safety, interest, concept, clubhouse and facility locations, aesthetics, degree of realism, etc. were off course also important factors.
...

Thanks for judging Philip. When I added my amateur judging results, I used essentially the same criteria.

[Nick Campanelli]

Charlie, it appears your "All-Star" selections were in some cases not the designer's favorites.  Im my case, I thought it was the weakest hole in my routing....examples of people who have mentioned similar thoughts to this point include...

Ed Oden's #1 (All-Star #6)
Nick Campanelli's #2 (All-Star #13)  
Alex Miller also mentioned one or two holes in his design he felt were weaker, but were selected to the All-Star cast...im unable to locate the post at the moment.  Alex, help me out....


[/quote]

[Alex Miller]

Mine is "all star" #9, my real 15th. I actually loved that hole on my course.  

I think my version of "all star" #4 might be better, it's my 14th. Those are my only holes on there.

In Charlie's defense, it must've been next to impossible to put 18 holes together from 13 different designs and use everyone's best holes.


By the way, Charlie did you do a design with Tom D this year? He seemed to have some idea on what he would have done with the course in the design process thread.

[Nick Campanelli]

...or maybe Charlie has poor taste.....kidding....kidding....

[Garland Bayley]

Charlie was just trying to put together a course from our various pieces and admitted up front that all-stars was a misnomer.

If it fit he used it.

[Nick Campanelli]

Charlie was just trying to put together a course from our various pieces and admitted up front that all-stars was a misnomer.

If it fit he used it.

Garland, I get it.  I saw a minor trend developing, and was trying to if anyone else's selection were their good or bad holes. 

[Garland Bayley]

The hole he took from my routing actually appears in Alex's routing also. No wonder I rated Alex high!

[Garland Bayley]

I just got the most recent Golf Digest. They are starting an armchair architect contest to design a hole from existing land. They suggest going on Google Earth and finding some interesting land, and then designing a hole for that land with Google Sketchup.

I wonder where Ron Whitten got that idea? 

WAY TO GO CHARLIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Garland Bayley]

The web address for the contest is
golfdigest.com/go/armchairarchitect

[Charlie Goerges]

I fully expect that the winner will come out of the group of participants from our contests. You've certainly had the practice!