AAC II. Results. Are. In.

[Andy Gray]

Tim,

That sort of format would be awesome. The more constraints, the more thought is needed to come up with a coherent routing. I like the idea of properly designing one green too, although many people on this site and indeed the people who enter the competition would not have a clue as to how it's done. There would first need to be a demonstration, or a process outlines for people to follow.

I cannot wait for the results!

Andy

[Nick Campanelli]

Andy, I remember last years but i think Charlie is looking for something a bit more confined and detailed, not just a topo, but an actual site with the elements spelled out - ie: veg, trees, existing utilities, maybe lakes/wetlands, soil type etc.  I spent a day w/Bob Lang on the EH site and there were alot of elements that Charlie left off AAC1 that would have impacted some routings.

Tim, I agree with you in having the site spelled out in detail (showing natural elements, or limitations) prior to the contest.  I spent a good portion of my time creating an identity or character for the site.  If this was done for me, and everyone also, we could focus more on the design and details.  I also support the detailed design of one green, or even having the designer select his/her signature hole to detail completely, similar to the Lido competition.  Using the same defined site would probably help judging as well, setting up a scenario that would allow you to compare apples to apples. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Andy, I remember last years but i think Charlie is looking for something a bit more confined and detailed, not just a topo, but an actual site with the elements spelled out - ie: veg, trees, existing utilities, maybe lakes/wetlands, soil type etc.  I spent a day w/Bob Lang on the EH site and there were alot of elements that Charlie left off AAC1 that would have impacted some routings.

Tim, I agree with you in having the site spelled out in detail (showing natural elements, or limitations) prior to the contest.  I spent a good portion of my time creating an identity or character for the site.  If this was done for me, and everyone also, we could focus more on the design and details.  I also support the detailed design of one green, or even having the designer select his/her signature hole to detail completely, similar to the Lido competition.  Using the same defined site would probably help judging as well, setting up a scenario that would allow you to compare apples to apples. 

Nick,

I think it's less about giving you the character of the site... Each designer still has to have his concept of what sort of course he is creating (although knowing vegetation etc... definitely is primary in deciding this)... and more about showing that a whole bunch of constraints mean that it is not always easy to find a great golf course with a plentitude of great natural holes....

...Certainly in my (limited) experience of routing courses, I've spent most of my time tearing my hair out as I try to get the jigsaw to fit... mixed in with Eureka moments along the way...

But yeah - comparing apples to apples......

This is a really great thread (and competition) though... Well done Charlie...

[Tim Nugent]

 "...it is not always easy to find a great golf course with a plentitude of great natural holes...."

Allie - Very astute, I do believe you have just hit upon the Holy Grail of Routing.  Congradulations.

BTW "Plentitude" - love it, going to have to add that to my vocabulary

[Steve Lang]

  Did anybody include a polo field?

[Tim Nugent]

Not that I could see, but I included one on a design in St. Petersburg, Russia - but the project never went forward.
The driving range at Onwensia was the polo field.  Butler has polo fields out past the end of the range but I don't think they are Bultler's.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Tim,

In general, did all the contestants provide the ancillary facilities or did they just plonk in a routing and a clubhouse?

Were they briefed to position maintenance facilities, access roads, driving range, putting & short range greens etc...?...

If they weren't, did they anyway?

Ally

[Charlie Goerges]

Ally, They weren't briefed to do much other than let their imaginations go. Some did position the ancillary facilities and some didn't. The rating/ranking criteria were entirely up to the judges. I'm guessing some probably gave some extra points for these types of things and some probably didn't. Not all of the judges are in yet, and I've had a couple of emergencies to deal with so I haven't been riding them to get them done yet.

[Gary_K]

Charlie,

Any projection on when the results will be known?

Gary

[Tim Nugent]

Tim,

In general, did all the contestants provide the ancillary facilities or did they just plonk in a routing and a clubhouse?

Were they briefed to position maintenance facilities, access roads, driving range, putting & short range greens etc...?...

If they weren't, did they anyway?

Ally

Pretty much as George posted.  A variety of # of holes, and ancillary items/ practice facilities.
But the one thing I don't remember - it's been a while now, was no one produced a maintenance compond.  I guess they must think those holes mow themselves But they almost all remembered to located a place to get a pint after the round

[Garland Bayley]

Charlie actually produced a map showing all the maintenance facilities except for mine. He mislabeled it as clubhouse sitings, but clearly all those poor clubhouse sitings were actually where the maintenance facilities belong.

[Guy Nicholson]

Since I'm among the guilty who didn't specify a maintenance site, can those in the know tell us what goes into choosing a location ofr one? I'm guessing factors like centrality, ease of access and unobtrusiveness are important, but in what measure?

[Charlie Goerges]

I was going to require that everyone place the maint. facilities complete with an altar on the front steps where every golfer would have to stop during the round and leave a sacrifice.

Wasn't sure if that would fly or not.

[Garland Bayley]

Charlie,

If in the unlikely event that my entry is judged on top of the heap right now, then tell the judges we have waited long enough and announce the results as is. If otherwise, tell them to take their sweet time and make the Andy Grays of the world squirm with anticipation.

[Steve Lang]

Charlie actually produced a map showing all the maintenance facilities except for mine. He mislabeled it as clubhouse sitings, but clearly all those poor clubhouse sitings were actually where the maintenance facilities belong.

au contraire mon frere

[Andy Gray]

Charlie,

If in the unlikely event that my entry is judged on top of the heap right now, then tell the judges we have waited long enough and announce the results as is. If otherwise, tell them to take their sweet time and make the Andy Grays of the world squirm with anticipation.

You are a cruel man Garland, very cruel indeed! 

Up until now I have been too busy to contribute to this let alone worry about when the judgment is in... Looks like that just changed.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Since I'm among the guilty who didn't specify a maintenance site, can those in the know tell us what goes into choosing a location ofr one? I'm guessing factors like centrality, ease of access and unobtrusiveness are important, but in what measure?

Here's my take on it -

Unobtrusiveness certainly.... The less you can see from the golf course (and the clubhouse windows) the better... Ideally the golfer forgets that there even is a maintenance facility...

Ease of access and centrality absolutely- But access to the facility should be different than access to the club and therefore not take all the equipment past the front of the clubhouse, through the carpark or behind the starting tees and finishing greens.... Centrality to the starting tees / greens is important but maybe not critical... A greenkeeper friend of mine reminded me that there is very little time between dawn in the morning and the first people teeing off so it is always a race to keep the mowers ahead of the first group...

Another thing that I bet all people didn't include was an irrigation reservoir and associated pump station removed from the playing area... This dependent on site, climate and water availability of course...

I'm sure there are supers and architects who can add much more to the above comments...

[Tim Nugent]

Since I'm among the guilty who didn't specify a maintenance site, can those in the know tell us what goes into choosing a location ofr one? I'm guessing factors like centrality, ease of access and unobtrusiveness are important, but in what measure?

Yes, those factors  figure in, along with Allie's.  In what measure?  Well, the less architecutally developed it is (ie tin building), the more you should strive to hide it.  Centrality is nice but not an overriding consideration, but circulation and the ability to get directly to multiple points on the course is important.  Many operations have the course broken down into maintenance clusters where the holes are grouped and one crew does the maintenance on them while other crews are doing the same on other groups.
Also, I try to locate the compound near the perimeter of the property so 1) reduce the need/cost to extend utilities into the course, 2) keep access road contruction to a minimum.  As Semi's deliver supplies, access roads have to be built to withstand heavy loads and be relatively straight.  Ideally, one can get the compound near the pumphouse.  Make sure you allocate enough room (2-3 ac - 1 Hectare)for storage, turf nursries, and employee parking.  And low paid golf course employees can drive some pretty unsightly cars so make sure those are out-of-sight too.

[Charlie Goerges]

Results are looking like mid-late next week. This weekend I'll try to kick off my All-star individual show. Hopefully I'll get through a couple of holes right away and then add the rest as the week wears on.

[Jeff Doerr]

Looking forward to it Charlie! Thanks for all your efforts.

[Andy Gray]

How are the results coming along Charlie? Looking forward to some new topics and points to discuss too.

[Charlie Goerges]

We're nearly there Andy, in fact 3/4 done. The instant I know the final results they'll be available for all to see. Good luck all!

[Garland Bayley]

Don't you get demoted 2 positions in the ranking every time you ask "are we there yet'?

[Gary_K]

With day 30 of judging being tomorrow, can you throw us a bone?

Thanks.

[Tim Nugent]

It's been so long, I'm having a hard time remembering, Glad I saved my tabulation sheet!
Who's he tardy judge?