[Richard_Goodale]

To me one of the defining characteristics of a great green is that there are not only multiple challenging possible pin positions, there is also at least one pin position that is something special.  Many of the older courses have those special challenges, but do not have multiple viable pin positions (17 and 18 at TOC and 14 and 17 at Pebble Beach come immediately to mind).  Many modern courses seem to have cottoned on to the concept of multiple positions, but not necessarily been able to create those truly special challenges (I must admit, in mitigation, that these sorts of special positions, on complex greens, do not always reveal themselves easily.  Perhaps some of the newer course I have played have such positions--I just have not yet found them).

I am not, BTW, talking about the "greens within greens" concept.  That, which is epitomised to me, at least, by the 1st at NGLA, is a more simplistic concept--building quadrants sharply separated by manufactured features.  What I have in mind, rather, in the 4th at Dornoch which has at least 5 separate pinning areas, which flow into each other seamlessly  and are interconnected in terms of play, and which has at least 2 realy special positions, mid left and center long which only the two finest of shots will ever getr one near and only the finest putting will allow one a par, much less a birdie.

Any thoughts?

[Mike O'Neill]

Rich,

Often a green must have several pin positions to simply accommodate 30 to 60 thousand rounds a year. Five distinct areas might not be enough. But surely, there should be "special" pin positions for those special occasions. That is one of the things that is cool about Augusta. I tune in to look for some of those pin positions.

Of course, I have seen my share of half-asleep, 18 year-old maintenance workers out cutting cups in a kind of fog and haphazardly creating "special" pin positions where none were ever meant to exist. Talk about your parade of four putts.  

[Tim_Weiman]

Rich Goodale:

A modern example of what you are looking for is #9 at Sand Ridge.  The green is split by a hump about two thirds of the way from the front and tilts right to left towards water guarding the green.  Typically the steep wall on the left of the green is mowed down pretty tight making any sight miss on the approach a wet ball.  On the right side are bunkers you really don't want to play out of downhill towards the water.

There are several pin positions on the front two thirds of the green, most favoring an approach that flirts with trouble on the left.  But, pin placements on the back, particularly back left, are very difficult.  During the US Open qualifier a few years ago almost nobody pulled of the correct shot which is to land near the top of the hump and let the ball trickle over slowly down toward the pin.

I've done it maybe once.  

One day I was out playing with Dusty Murdock and gave the shot my best effort but still left the ball on top on the right.  I hit it slmost perfect, but was still left with a likely three putt.

Frustrated, I said "damn".

"What are you complaining about?", Dusty asked.

"My shot sucked", I replied.

"Pal", Dusty insisted, "that was a great shot".

"Really", I said still pissed off, "do you think your buddy Seve would be happy with that shot?"

"Let me tell you", Dusty continued, "I've played a lot of golf with Seve.....and I can tell you he would be happy.....and I can also say he is a much better putter than you are Tim".

Anyway, I don't know how much Dusty has really played with Seve, but watching the Open qualier convinced we that having one really demanding pin position is a great thing.

[A_Clay_Man]

Rich - Just a thought, Isn't the 14th at pebble the epitomy of the green within a green concept, that your not talking about? The 17th too is distinctly two seperate greens.

Here at Pinon Hills and I assume at other Ken Dye courses the greens are what makes the golf course so strategically challenging. While they are nowhere near the, green within the green, that Miller's Eagleridge (?)(Gilroy) is. They do allow for an easy three(or four) putt if the wrong section or miscalculated putt speed is selected.

[Richard_Goodale]

Adam

My recollection of 14 PB is that you really can't put a reasonable pin on the right.  To me 17 PB is a very medicore golf hole when the pin is on the right.  So, to me there is only one "real" pin position on each hole.  You know them better.  Am I missing something?

[Mike O'Neill]

Rich,

In looking at early pictures of #17 at Pebble Beach, no doubt there were more good pin positions in the early days before the green was narrowed. I trust your favored pin position is the one into which Tom Watson chipped twenty years ago?

[Richard_Goodale]

Mike

You assume right (although I'm not sure there is any other position on that side of the green).  The latter of which brings up the issue of courses with small greens, i.e. Pebble.  Doesn't this feature limit the amount of width than can actually be used on fairways, as the smaller the green the more precision os required for the tee shot placement?  With larger greens, multiple angles can be used.  If the larger greens also have a lot of good pin positions, the course set up can have lots of variety on a day to day basis.  No?

[Mike O'Neill]

Rich,

I think you are correct for the most part. In most cases I suppose you had better be on the correct side of the fairway if the green is small.

But there may be exceptions. And those exceptions have to do with the green complex itself. I can think of a couple of instances where the green complex affords a variety of possible ways to get to even the smallest green target. Unfortunately, for some reason I have Bayside in Nebraska on my mind today and those examples won't help us here.

But let's take the green on #16 at Augusta for what it is worth. If you took that green complex and even shrunk the green down in size and put it on a par 4 and put the pin in the front left (see Davis Love chip in for reference   ) there would still be different ways to get to the flag depending on if your drive is on the far right side of the fairway or, say, 60 yards left on the left side of the fairway. You can fly it in. You can hit a draw short and run it in. With a littel more modification to the approach, you could bump it in. You could throw it against the back slope of the green and watch it feed back toward the front edge. What you do not have at Augusta's #16 if you leave the ball on the wrong side of the green is a reasonable birdie putt. There are several good examples of this sort of thing at Bayside. But the difference is that the helping slope might be part of the green complex but not part of the green itself at Bayside, except for the short par 3 17th. The green at #16 at Augusta is a wee bit too severe for even the generally steady breed in Nebraska, especially when coupled with the burden of being at the geographical center of the universe.

Just kidding.

  (There, I used "the roll your eyes" smiley to save you the trouble.)

[RJ_Daley]

Mike, 17 at Bayside will become one of the most talked about par 3s of the coming years, IF the surrounds are properly maintained, particularly the backboard fringe and rough.  It needs the correct fringe cut to a particular level up the backside slope,and a rough that is kept properly sparse and cut to the right height.  It has two excellent pin positions on lower left and 2-3 pins on upper right and on front right center.  It is a par 3 that one could take a bucket of balls out to the tee and spend the afternoon playing.  It has to have multiple tees as it does due to the wide range of winds.  Dan is so nervous about how that hole will be received by the public.  If people don't see the greatness of that hole, put them on a defibrilator!!!

I think the 'special' pin on 17 Bayside is the furthest left lower tier.  One can hit a high approach to stop on very small target of lower left tier, or go long and use the backbaoard to come back left past the bunker in the midle of the green, or if one drifts right to upper tier, the green is constructed to allow a carefully planned put to get to the lower tier around the bunker on either side (usually).  3 putts are in play at all times from the wrong side, but not in an unfair or goofy golf manner because the contours are done right around the bunker in the middle of the green. Of course disaster lurks short of green, so the thrill of seeing a favorable result if a little long and bounce back from rear slope is part of the excitement.

[Mike O'Neill]

Dick,

AMEN!

You don't have a photo of that hole by any chance do you? There is an absolutely beautiful photo taken from the tee in the late evening one summer night in Midwest Living's Nebraska Traveler magazine. I can just sit and stare at it. But I can't pass it on cyberly unfortunately.  

By the way, the other holes I am thinkin of along these lines are 4, 6, 8 and 14(to a lesser extent) and 16, in case you are curious.

[RJ_Daley]

I just counted and found I have 28 pictures of 17

I will pick a few out that I think you might like and send them along to e-mail shortly.

[Mike O'Neill]

Dick,

I received the photos. Great fun. Thanks for indulging me!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich,

Starting April 11th through April 14th, I think you'll see just what you described, especially now that the front nine will be televised as well.

While Mike cited # 16, there are an abundant number of greens that meet your criteria.

[A_Clay_Man]

Rich- I wouldn't go so far as to say those are the only pin positions on either hole. Your opinion maybe correct that those are the Best pins. But like most greens you learn to appreciate the subtleties and variety of a different pin i.e. the rightside pin on both 14 & 17 are niether unfair or boring. On 14 it has to be one of lifes greatest gravity teachers and the bunkers invisibilty on 17's  rightside makes for some excitement for us high faders. Also on right 17's green  the dominant slope towards point lobos is contrary to the contour of the slope that divides the green and it really does require knowledge on how much break not to play.  

[Dennis Harwood]

Highly technical, but a "pin" is something a tailor uses--The proper terms, on a golf related site, are hole locations and flagsticks!

[ian]

If your into great green contours, and unique pinning locations, go visit a Walter Travis course. Cape Arundal, Scranton CC, Stafford CC (11th is a standout), Lookout Point, Penn Hills (7th is one of the greatest in golf, the central "throne" is very unique). Travis was a great putter and placed more premium on putting, and pin positions, than any other architect I have encountered (so far).

[Mike O'Neill]

Can I throw Dan Protor and Dave Axland in that category Ian?

[Pete_Pittock]

Crystal Downs has several, I liked back right on 13 the best.

Do they work mainly on private courses, where constant play will eventually discover keys to play to the positions, and won't be appreciated on CCFAD and resort courses, where the golfer most likely will never discover them?

[D. Kilfara]

Rich - how do you figure that #17 and #18 on the Old Course don't have multiple viable pin positions? #18 has loads of them (all fall into one of two categories: those which make you flirt with the Valley of Sin on the approach, and those which don't), while #17 has three distinct areas hole locations relative to Road Bunker (in front of, equal with, and behind). The Road Hole in particular is a hole which makes me wonder where the flag is going to be well in advance of when I actually get there, assuming that I forgot to look at it on my way past the first green - the hole plays at least half a shot harder when the hole location is in the back.

I know you're not a big fan of TOC, but still...

Cheers,
Darren

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