[Tom MacWood]

I've removed Ottawa Park based on Chris's recommendation. Nemadji was at one time private so it is off too.

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White

[Tom MacWood]

TMac,

Please help me understand...you ask Phil for articles and he supplies them. You post articles about the courses you value that basically tout the tournaments they have held, as being evidence that they were good.  Phil posts an article about how well known the Blue was, and the tournaments it held and you are very dismissive?

Not really knowing either course well, can you supply your opinion as to why that isn't at least some evidence that the Blue was good, compared to some of your posts in a similar vein?

BTW, I did some work at Nemadji when working up in Minnesota.  Its a nice public course, but I didn't see huge amounts of architectural signifigance.  In some ways, I wonder just how valid this whole thread is, since none of us played any of these in the time period listed. In the end, its your opinion vs Mike Cirbas or anyones opinion against anyone elses, no?

Jeff
If you think those articles prove the Blue was considered superior to the Red thats good enough for me. I personally don't see it, but lets move on.

I just discovered Nemadji was originally a private club (Gitchinadji GC) so I'm taking it off the list.

[Mike Cirba]

*

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

I don't really know what they prove, but they seemed to be similar in scope to some of the ones you posted to prove your points, and I was curious as to what the difference was, other than Mike posted them and you posted yours.  I have no real interest in joining the cat fight.

I do appreciate your list of courses, as it kind of gives a good snap shot of where public golf was in the era.  I am not sure we can tell a lot from various opinions we might have based on aerials, newspaper articles, etc.

I read a golf industry article the other day that said even today, with private courses comprising a much smaller % of the total golf courses than publics, that overall, a surprising amount of the total rounds are still played at private clubs.  Pre coffee, I can't recall where I saw that or I would post it.  However, I presume public play is proportionally greater today, leading me to wonder if any of those articles post actual rounds played at these places back in the 1920's?

[Mike Cirba]

*

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Nice try...Too funny.

Should I post the 1927 pic too?   The course was still HVGC at that time.

Mike
Is that 1927 HV pic the old course or the new course?

http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p268001uw&CISOPTR=6906&CISOBOX=1&REC=8

Who originally designed HV, and when did AH Smith make his changes? What do you know of George Low and HS Colt's redesign work on the course? I suspect Alison redesigned HV, and not Baederwood, and that was probably around 1921 when his was in Philly working on PVGC.

[Tom MacWood]

I found this little blurb on Ottawa Park in the Philadelphia Inquirer:

[Kyle Harris]

Tom,

You do know that Flynn did work on the Noble Course at HVCC too, right? And that it is fairly well documented - even with the changes outlined on Flynn individual hole plans.

Not to be a real bother - but can you tell the work Flynn did from the aerial? I'll try to find the original changes on the Flynn plan and post once you answer.

Yes, I'm being a real chore here, but I don't think you quite understand the full extent of the evolution of the Baederwood/Noble course and especially not based on the aerial and a few secondary sources.

And yes, the 1927 aerial is of the current Flynn course. Very interesting to see the similarities and differences in the design for me.

[TEPaul]

How in the world is Tom MacWood (or anyone else for that matter ) going to pick out Flynn changes to the Noble course or Alison changes or anyone else's changes from about 5,000ft aerials if he doesn't seem to even recognize the difference between the old Noble course and the present golf course on just two aerials?   It is just amazing to me some of the things that man tends to say on here under the guise of certainty. Too bad Cirba is about the only one on this thread who's actually laughing at him.

If you'd like to know what Flynn did on the old Noble course I'd be glad to tell you; it's in the book. And it seems like HVGC has a pretty decent record of what happened on both courses (other than who originally did the second nine on the old Noble course) and it sure doesn't look like Alison did anything to the old Noble course until it became the Baederwood club after HVGC moved. But what the hell if MacWood says he can spot Alison bunkers on a 1921 aerial of the old Noble course I guess that proves Alison was there in 1920 or 1921 when he was around here doing a master plan for Pine Valley!  

[Dan Herrmann]

"Too bad Cirba is about the only one on this thread who's actually laughing at him"

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

You do know that Flynn did work on the Noble Course at HVCC too, right? And that it is fairly well documented - even with the changes outlined on Flynn individual hole plans.

Not to be a real bother - but can you tell the work Flynn did from the aerial? I'll try to find the original changes on the Flynn plan and post once you answer.

Yes, I'm being a real chore here, but I don't think you quite understand the full extent of the evolution of the Baederwood/Noble course and especially not based on the aerial and a few secondary sources.

And yes, the 1927 aerial is of the current Flynn course. Very interesting to see the similarities and differences in the design for me.

Kyle
I didn't know that....what year did Flynn rework the Noble course?

[Tom MacWood]

I added Opa Locka, Pasadena and Mount Plymouth in Florida. There was a lot of quality (and quanity) in Florida in the 1920s.

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White

[Tom MacWood]

EDIT - To be clear, what I meant by "until the 1930s" should have been more accurately stated as "until the depression".  Government work programs during the 1930s poured tons of money and construction efforts into existing and new public golf courses, making it a very blurry decade in terms of relational course comparisons.   We only know that by the end of the decade, Bethpage Black emerged as the clear best and most demanding, and several other new great public venues were built.

Mike
No, I would not agree. CC was not even close to being the best or most demanding public golf course in America. On a good day it was somewhere in the middle of the pack, and that is on a very good day.

Also your elimination of all the courses built in the 1930s is ridiculous. The WPA and other public work programs did not begin until late in 1933, so the cut off should be 1933 at the earliest.

[DMoriarty]

'Scores in the low and upper 60's by the better golfer were fairly common on the old layout . . .'  hardly seems like one of the best public golf courses around.  Especially at a yardage of 5,613 yards.

It is also interesting to note that the course went from 5,613 yards to 5,478 (1977) to a present day 5,079 yardage.

Thanks for the articles on the course.

No problem.  I was curious myself.   I am not sure we should dismiss Ottowa because they were tearing it up score-wise in 1977, especially because we don't know what had happened to it prior to 1977.  For example, as you mention, the course had lost over 500 yards somewhere along the way.   

Also, early last century, 5613 yards was not all that short.  For example, one of the articles Mike posted listed Cobbs Creek (according to him the best and most difficult public in all the land) at only 6072 yards.   And given the way they used to measure golf courses in Philadelphia, there is a very good chance that Cobbs was significantly shorter than 6000 yards.   

[DMoriarty]

I feel more confident than ever stating that until the Depression, Cobb's Creek was acknowledged as the best and most demanding public course in the country.

1.  It was acknowledged as "the best and most demanding"?  By whom? Because your supposed contemporary newspaper accounts do not even come close to making your case. How can you possibly pretend that articles from 1916 support your claim that Cobbs was the best and most demanding course prior to 1936, or even before 1930?   I doubt the authors had supernatural powers; they weren't even from Philadelphia.  Your "support" is yet another example of that absurd Cirbaian logic, where you start with a conclusion and then stretch and twist whatever phacts you can to pretend to support it.  An abcirbaty.

2.   Your pretension that you meant 1930 instead of 1936 is beyond specious.   The 1936 date was mentioned multiple times on this thread and you never had a problem with it, never clarified, never mentioned the 1930 date, never said you were misunderstood.  It wasn't until a few days later when you tried to put together a list of your own that you must have realized the absurdity of your claim and started trying to narrow it.  But even then, in your new thread, you didn't initially claim that you had been misunderstood and you meant 1930 from the beginning.  Rather, when asked why you narrowed the date range, you claimed it was because too much was going on in the 1930's-- nothing about being misunderstood.    The whole misunderstanding cry was invented later, in response to MacWood's list.  And I agree with Tom that your explanation of your change of heart is ridiculous.  In addition to his point, I'd add that many of the courses opened in the early thirties were in the works, even planned and partially constructed, before WPA became an issue.

3.  Your continued mockery and dismissal of courses you obviously know nothing about is too much.   Believe it or not, Mike, there were very good public courses outside of Philadelphia and even outside of your knowledge base.   I've played Cobbs and know a bit about its history.  I also know something about about some of the West Coast courses on the list (and a few not on it) and for you to proclaim Cobbs the absolute best and hardest in the land until 1936 (or even 1930) is ludicrous.

[TEPaul]

" Your "support" is yet another example of that absurd Cirbaian logic, where you start with a conclusion and then stretch and twist whatever phacts you can to pretend to support it."


MY GOD, YOU should talk!! I doubt there has ever been a a more egregious example of trying to distort facts to arrive at predetemined premises and conclusions than your absurd essay "The Missing Faces of Merion." That was precisely the overwhelming impression of all those who read it who actually know something about the history of that course and its actual arachitects!

When it comes to the art of distorted logic (vaguely a technique Brad Klein accurately labeled "positivism" with MacWood's "Arts and Crafts" essay) that is essentially the only thing you and MacWood are stars at on here.

[Chris_Blakely]

Chris,

Please do not concern yourself with inconvenient facts like this as it will only make you think and question and get a headache.

Instead, please just accept our word that Ottawa Park was one of the greatest public golf courses ever built, even at 5600 yards, and we know that because we have our subscriptions to newsarchive.com and can find you some articles about this awesome course in seconds.

We've never seen or played there, but we can quote that S P. Jermain was involved with its inception and was even brought back in the 20s for a redesign, so it's gotta be good.

If nothing else, it's better than any course ever built in Philadelphia.

Thanks,
David Moriarty and Tom MacWood
Golf Course Historians, Extraordinaire
[/quote]

Mike,
I have played the current Ottawa Park GC numerous times and it is fun a quirky and has a solid finishing 18th hole and a TON of driveable par 4’s for me and that is saying something.  But, I would never confuse this course for being great.  I have read the info on S. Jermain in the old American Golfer or Golf Illustrated articles (I just don’t have the time to find and then post them like Tom has).    I have also played many of the courses that Tom has on his list and would not even think about playing this course over any of the ones that I have played (Triggs, Tam O’Shanter PA and OH, Belvedere, Rackham, Split Rock,  etc).  I have  not played Cobb’s Creek and that is why I did not reference it, so please do not read into my not including it.  I have wanted to play the course, but I figure I will need to play it in the late season to not go nuts trying to get a round in in under 5 hours.

On a positive, note I think you Tom, David, etc do great research!!!
Thanks,
Chris

[Chris_Blakely]

I added Tam O'Shanter in Canton. I had mistakenly thought it had been a private club originally.

Tom,

Why is the Tam O'Shanter Dales course on the list over the Hills course?  As the Hills course opened in 1931?  I have played both and they are a ton of fun on some wild undulating terrain? 

Thanks,

Chris

[Mike Cirba]

*

[DMoriarty]

" Your "support" is yet another example of that absurd Cirbaian logic, where you start with a conclusion and then stretch and twist whatever phacts you can to pretend to support it."


MY GOD, YOU should talk!! I doubt there has ever been a a more egregious example of trying to distort facts to arrive at predetemined premises and conclusions than your absurd essay "The Missing Faces of Merion." That was precisely the overwhelming impression of all those who read it who actually know something about the history of that course and its actual arachitects!

When it comes to the art of distorted logic (vaguely a technique Brad Klein accurately labeled "positivism" with MacWood's "Arts and Crafts" essay) that is essentially the only thing you and MacWood are stars at on here.

Another swipe, one of thousands, and yet still no substantive refutation of a single key point in the IMO.   It must really bother you that an outsider could have figured out what happened at Merion East, given you were sitting on everything and had no clue.

As you say, no substantive rebuttal is necessary.  The essay was and is correct on every major point, so there really isn't much to correct, especially when doing so would confirm the accuracy of the major theses.    If you disagree, put it in an IMO.   Otherwise, quit boring us with your pettiness.

_______________________________________

Mike Cirba,

Mind explaining how the 1916 article acknowledged that Cobbs was the best and most difficult public course prior to 1936, 1930, or any other date after 1916?

Surely the article you just posted isn't your proof is it?  According to the Philadelphia commissioner,  in 1925, one guy likes Cobbs better than the New York courses and one in Dayton, Ohio?   And your conclusion was that Cobbs was absolutely the best in the land.    An abcirbaty.  

  

[TEPaul]

"As you say, no substantive rebuttal is necessary."


Yes, that is what I've said a number of times and that is the way I (and everyone I know and respect) feels about that essay, at this point.


  

"The essay was and is correct on every major point, so there really isn't much to correct, especially when doing so would confirm the accuracy of the major theses."



If I knew of more than a handful of people (I frankly know of less than that) who actually share  YOUR OPINION of your OWN essay   I might actually consider doing a good IMO counter-point essay to that absurd piece just to enlighten them, but at this point I don't know of more than a few (including you and MacWood and perhaps still Mucci) who think it's necessary. Everyone else I know and respect pretty much saw through it on their own and gernerally for its remarkably transparent fallacious reasoning.

Therefore, the necessity to do a counterpoint IMO just isn't there anymore.  

[Mike Cirba]

*

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul,    Fortunately for me, the opinion of you and your cronies has no bearing on the truth or accuracy of my essay.   I look forward to your IMO.   I am sure it will be fact filled and fully supported by the source material.

—--------------------------------------

Mike Cirba,

I'll gladly admit when I am wrong.  Wrong about what, exactly?

 I wrote that you never objected or clarified the 1936 date until after you started the second thread.  As usual, your understanding has little relationship to what you've read.

But I understand why you will not explain how a 1916 article acknowledged Cobbs greatness long after that date, or how the these articles could possibly justify you claim.

[TEPaul]

"I have no desire to continue any communications with you, at all, David, and no, I won't explain another thing."


Michael:

You don't? Oh come on fella, what's the matter with you? I guess this means you no longer like shooting a fish in a barrel, huh?  

As Tom Cruise's reo said in TOP GUN; "Come on Maverick, shake it off, RE-ENGAGE and get back in the game!"  

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Why is the Tam O'Shanter Dales course on the list over the Hills course?  As the Hills course opened in 1931?  I have played both and they are a ton of fun on some wild undulating terrain?  

Thanks,

Chris

Chris
I chose the Dales because it was the tougher (slightly) of the two, and the long time host of the Ohio Open. I thought about including both courses, but I thought I might be accused of being an Ohio homer.

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