Pre and Post Depression public and resort community courses

[Mike Cirba]

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[Phil_the_Author]

Phil-the-Author
That wasn't the question. The question was how do you rationalize your Bethpage Blue/Red comparison after getting on your high horse with the Baederwood/Cobbs comparison? You ought to practice what you preach.

Tom, please refer to my earlier post. I added just a few of the "facts" that allow me to "rationalize" as I do. I hit the enter buttion by mistake before I added the rest. I DO practice what I preach. When are you going to show some "FACTS" for your rationalizations? And just so you know, my horse has been going to AA meetings for several years now and is no longer "High."

By the way courses involved in the qualifying rounds are not considered a course that hosted the championship. For example North Shore shared the qualifying rounds for 1920 US Am with Engineers, but NS has never hosted the US Am.

Really? Still, even by your own definition the BLUE course hosted a national championship as the FINAL ROUNDS were played over it."

As far was the title of the thread that is Mike's not mine. For someone who has participated on this thread for long time now I'm surprised you were not aware of that. The thread took a turn when Mike wrote:

"However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country."

As someone who has participated in this thread for quite a while it is quite obvious that you are commenting to a different theme and supposition that Mike posted. For example, he has stated over and over again that THIS THREAD was about courses designed no later than 1930. He has explained that many times to you and yet you continue to list courses opened AFTER that date. He even went so far as to edit a response in BLUE ink (which is why I used Red here to differentiate) that explained it again after which you kept on citing courses opened after 1930. You are the one either not paying attention or not caring. And yes Tom, I was well aware that it was MIKE who started the thread and posted the title and the theme he wanted to discuss...

[Tom MacWood]

Phil
That is not proof...YOU need to provide contemporaneous articles, photographs and/or aerials as proof. Under your logic Bethpage-Blue is superior to Bethpage-Black.

I don't think you understand how one determines who hosts the event. In the case of match play the course that hosts that portion of the championship is considered the host. The course or courses involved in the qualifying are not necessarily the host although in most cases the course who hosts the match play championship is also involved in the qualifying. For example Merion East & West in 1916. The East hosted the championship event and was also involved in the qualifying (along with the West).

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

What if I told you those large, prototypical Charles Alison bunkers, the same one's you're viewing in 2-dimensions in Daniel Wexler's book, were there when the course was still Huntingdon Valley in the mid-20s?

What if I told you that the as much of the prototypical elegant, sophisticated Charles Alison routing you're viewing in Dan Wexler's book in 2-dimensions, that allows you to compare and contrast the courses that were on the ground 80 years ago without actually ever seeing them, or understanding their landforms in three-dimension, was there when the course was still Huntingdon Valley in the mid-20s?

What if I told you that despite Ab Smith's diligent efforts to give Philadelphia a championship worthy course at HVGC, guys like Tillinghast wrote that he'd probably gotten everything out of the land that it would permit,simply because it stayed wet, agronomics were a constant problem, and the property was limited?

Yet, you sit here and determine and pontificate that one course you've never seen that you obviously know nothing about HAS to be better than another course you've never seen, and which you obviously know nothing about, all because you're viewing a two-dimensional drawing that looks to have some cute bunkers.

Now, I know this will send you scrambling, but don't waste your time.   I'm sure you will find a news article proclaiming that the great Mr. Alison is in town and is going to make the course at Baederwood the finest of it's kind anywhere.

There is no shame in not being an expert in every course ever built, but don't try to come off as one.

I'm looking at the aerials from the Hagley, not Daniel's drawing.

[Mike Cirba]

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[Tom MacWood]

Phil-the-Author
I just saw your article. Doesn't that article state that neither the Red nor Black was open for play? Are saying that article is proof the Blue was considered superior to the Red?

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
I thought a couple of those bunkers at Baederwood were a bit odd ball looking, now we know what is AH Smith and what is CH Alison. Like I said Baederwood was a more sophisticated design IMO, which is not a surprising considering CH Alison's involvement.

[Mike Cirba]

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[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Now I'm wondering if YOU are high and not simply on your own high horse!

Phil
That is not proof...YOU need to provide contemporaneous articles, photographs and/or aerials as proof. Under your logic Bethpage-Blue is superior to Bethpage-Black.

I DID! Or is an article written the DAY AFTER the course opened not contemporaneous enough for you? As far as the article even intimating that it was superior to the Black, you OBVIOUSLY didn't bother to read the article. It states, "the third unit, the 'Black' course, which will be a real championship unit, will probably not be opened for a year or more..." Whiffy wasn't including the "Black" course in his opinion as to the Blue being the "Finest Public Links" he had ever seen since it wasn't even finished yet!

I don't think you understand how one determines who hosts the event. In the case of match play the course that hosts that portion of the championship is considered the host. The course or courses involved in the qualifying are not necessarily the host although in most cases the course who hosts the match play championship is also involved in the qualifying. For example Merion East & West in 1916. The East hosted the championship event and was also involved in the qualifying (along with the West).

Once again you show that you didn't read what I wrote. Here it is once again, "Still, even by your own definition the BLUE course hosted a national championship as the FINAL ROUNDS were played over it." The BLUE Course hosted the championship portion which is why the FINAL ROUNDS were played on it. Why, though, wouldn't the RED Course also properly be considered as having "hosted" the championship since it, TOO, hosted the final rounds of championship play... the TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP portion of the event! There was a TEAM portion to the Publick Links as well as an INDIVIDUAL portion. Evidently you weren't aware of that. Clubs and cities actually sent entire teams to copmpete. I'd be more than happy to post an article about it and photos of some of the teams, but I don't think you'd think them "contemporaneous" as they were written and taken days BEFORE the event started and during it...

[Phil_the_Author]

Correct Tom, the Red wouldn't open for another month. Sorry, but there are simply too many articles that cite the Blue as being superior to the Red course before the Black opened for play. Again, the Red course is not used for exhibition matches durinmg the next decade plus while the Blue was and quite often.

By the way, can you show me a SINGLE article that states that the Red course was even its superior? I don't think you'll be able to.

[Tom MacWood]

Correct Tom, the Red wouldn't open for another month. Sorry, but there are simply too many articles that cite the Blue as being superior to the Red course before the Black opened for play. Again, the Red course is not used for exhibition matches durinmg the next decade plus while the Blue was and quite often.

By the way, can you show me a SINGLE article that states that the Red course was even its superior? I don't think you'll be able to.

Saying there are too many articles to cite is not proof.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Nice picture...you can really see the detail. Here is the link for those interested. The 1927 aerial looks like it may be taken in the later phases of construction....I assume that is the Flynn course.

http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p268001uw&CISOPTR=445&CISOBOX=1&REC=6

http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p268001uw&CISOPTR=6906&CISOBOX=1&REC=8

[Tom MacWood]

I'm taking Baederwood off the list....I think it is pretty clear it was a redesign of HV.

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadwobrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Nemadji Muni (1932) - S.Pelchar
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White

[Phil_the_Author]

Not showing ANY as you haven't is certainly even less...

C'mon Tom, what is so hard with imagining that the ORIGINAL Blue Course at Bethpage was considered superior to the Red? The USGA believed it so, which one has to believe they did since they held the Public Links Championship on it. The park itself believed it as well as they could have used any of the courses for exhibition matches but they didn't use the Red and did use the Blue.

CONTEMPORANEOUS nationally recognized professionals such as Whiffy Cox and others considered the Blue to be the best in the country before the Red was opened.

By the way, here's another one, the last one that I'll post. It's also from the New York Times and was published on September 26, just a few months after the Publick Links was held on it. It is an announcement that the Metropolitan Professional Golfer's Association Championship would be held on the BLUE course. Now WHY would they choose to use the BLUE if the RED was superior to it? The Black, though it was now open for play, was still not in good enough shape with its turf to host it. So why not use the RED if it was better?



Even you can see the logic in that, especially when you read what it says about the BLUE course. "The Blue Course is already well known because of the National Public Links Tournament which was played on it in July..." Then it mentions a few pretty well known pros who had an exhibition on it in September...

I'll let you look up the articles about that match and the comments made about the course...

[Mike Cirba]

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[Dan Herrmann]

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[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Nice try...Too funny.

Should I post the 1927 pic too?   The course was still HVGC at that time.

Mike
Is that 1927 pic the old course or the new course?

http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p268001uw&CISOPTR=6906&CISOBOX=1&REC=8

Who originally designed HV, and when did AH Smith make his changes? What do you know of George Low and HS Colt's redesign work on the course? I suspect Alison redesigned HV, and not Baederwood, and that was probably around 1921 when his was in Philly working on PVGC.

[Tom MacWood]

Phil
That is proof the Blue was considered superior to the Red? Whatever you say...

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Please help me understand...you ask Phil for articles and he supplies them. You post articles about the courses you value that basically tout the tournaments they have held, as being evidence that they were good.  Phil posts an article about how well known the Blue was, and the tournaments it held and you are very dismissive?

Not really knowing either course well, can you supply your opinion as to why that isn't at least some evidence that the Blue was good, compared to some of your posts in a similar vein?

BTW, I did some work at Nemadji when working up in Minnesota.  Its a nice public course, but I didn't see huge amounts of architectural signifigance.  In some ways, I wonder just how valid this whole thread is, since none of us played any of these in the time period listed. In the end, its your opinion vs Mike Cirbas or anyones opinion against anyone elses, no?

[Phil_the_Author]

"Phil, That is proof the Blue was considered superior to the Red? Whatever you say..."

Well look at that Tom, you're finally starting to get it.

Now its time for you to supply some articles or proof of any kind. Despite your having been asked to do what you keep demanding of others you simply refuse to supply a single article to prove any of your claims.

I can provide you with DOZENS of similar articles about the BLUE course but why should I bother when you refuse to supply even a single one. Why should anyone bother when you simply won't and then respond with sarcasm for what has been posted? You've lost any and all credibility until you do.

This thread is 100% about individuals OPINIONS. There is no correct or incorrect answer, simply opinions held and disagreed with. I am more than willing to respect any opinion you state on  here but can't when you won't respect those of anyone else. So, you wanted contemporaneous articles, etc... and you got some. Now its time for you to do the same...
  

[Mike Cirba]

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[Mike Cirba]

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[Chris_Blakely]

. . . I know Art Hills redesigned it around 1977, but I do not know exactly what those changes were.

Thanks,
Chris

Two articles from the Toledo Blade about the opening:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8cYxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=0g0EAAAAIBAJ&pg=6738,6284454&dq=ottawa+park+golf+course&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1gkVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cQIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5212,6360053&dq=ottawa+park+golf+course&hl=en

Another article reported the changes cost $600,000.

Sounds like the course fell into disrepair pretty quickly thereafter:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Y3UUAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YgIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4776,6472229&dq=ottawa+park+golf+course&hl=en

'Scores in the low and upper 60's by the better golfer were fairly common on the old layout . . .'  hardly seems like one of the best public golf courses around.  Especially at a yardage of 5,613 yards.

It is also interesting to note that the course went from 5,613 yards to 5,478 (1977) to a present day 5,079 yardage.

Thanks for the articles on the course.

Chris

[Mike Cirba]

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[Tom MacWood]

Mike
You seem to be wound a little tight tonight. Here is a link to an aerial of Baederwood and the bunkers in this picture are typical of Alison.

http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p268001uw&CISOPTR=6140&CISOBOX=1&REC=6

Did AH Smith lay out HV originally? George Thomas's book claims Low and Colt were involved at some point, what do you know about that?