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Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #100 on: June 30, 2010, 06:42:52 AM »
I added the two courses at Sunset Fields (NLE) and Metropolitan Parks in Cleveland, called Big Met today. I had thought Met may had been a private course originally, like Sleepy Hollow (Thompson) and Manakiki (Ross), two other top public courses in Cleveland. But I confirmed it was public all along.

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Hyde Park, Fl (1924) - S.Thompson
Bobby Jones (1926) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) -E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1917) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Nemadji Muni (1932) - S.Pelchar
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 06:58:51 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #101 on: June 30, 2010, 07:08:41 AM »
Here is a little blurb on Sylvanus Jermain....its at the very end of the article. I've also attached a photo that includes a short bio. He was a very interesting man.


http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1927/gi271q.pdf

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1920/gi133c.pdf

Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #102 on: June 30, 2010, 07:20:22 AM »
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« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 03:08:38 PM by MCirba »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #103 on: June 30, 2010, 07:25:06 AM »
Mike,

To think that some researcher in 2182 will make an astounding "discovery" about the municipal golf courses of the twentieth century and those who designed them from a WEKEYPEEDIA page...



Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #104 on: June 30, 2010, 07:54:31 AM »
Mike,

I think Delray Beach GC should be added to your list:

http://www.jcdsportsgroup.com/delray_beach_golf_club/history.htm
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #105 on: June 30, 2010, 07:56:30 AM »
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« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 03:13:52 PM by MCirba »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #106 on: June 30, 2010, 08:27:07 AM »
Mike,

Along with Tom's staunch refusal to change the date of opening for Brackenridge Park from 1917 when it didn't open to 1916 when it did, is there any reason that you can think that prevents him from placing Bethpage BLACK on his list, especially as he has the Red & Bluee courses there... since this topic is talking about course prior to 1930 that is...  ;D

Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #107 on: June 30, 2010, 08:46:27 AM »
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« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 03:14:07 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #108 on: June 30, 2010, 09:32:46 AM »

However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country.


Now, now Mike. I'll be glad to add Cobbs Creek to the list if it will make you feel better, the course does belong, but as you know this list was in response to your silly comment above, that's why its not on the list. Are there any other Philly courses that should be included?

By the way IMO this has been a very educational thread, I've personally learned a lot researching it. The quality and depth of public courses was quite impressive in the 1920s and 1930s.

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #109 on: June 30, 2010, 09:37:06 AM »
Steve:

Interesting article on the history of Delray Beach GC. For starters I never knew the original nine was Ross.

But I think there may be a number of interesting back stories that weren't in that article. For instance, that may've been the place where Dick Wilson went after he left the Toomey/Flynn organization and it just may've been where he got his start on his own in architecture after perhaps being the greenkeeper at Delray Beach GC. During the war Wilson did work on military airfields down there.

And then there's the whole back story of Armour and why he was there for those fifteen years or so. During all those years I think he was still the pro at Winged Foot in the summer but something happened down there in Florida with him and Boca Raton GC in the winter. The story was he got fired and just went up the road to Delray to live and to hang out at the Delray Beach GC to teach.

Armour was definitely the magnet for all those good players hanging around Delray Beach GC, particularly the early LPGA gals hanging around Delray and the Delray Beach GC. I know this because my father was part of that group. In those early years he worked for Spalding and part of his job was to take care of the "LPGA Spalding Stable" of tour pros which many of those on that list in the article were part of. But it was Armour and his teaching that was the real magnet.

In those years it also seems Armour never drove a car for some reason and since he lived right down the street from my father, Dad was also one of Armour's drivers to take him to the course and take him home again when the day was done and after which Armour had had something in the neighborhood of twenty gin bucks.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #110 on: June 30, 2010, 09:42:06 AM »

I've played Delray Beach GC and there is a reason it wasn't on there.  

But, I have no qualms if you want to add it to Tom MacWood's Every public course built through the depression list.   I'm sure it fits remarkably well.


Delray Beach was originally a nine hole golf course; the second nine was added in the 50s. The list is supposed to be circa 1936...so that is why DB was not considered for my list.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 09:54:21 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #111 on: June 30, 2010, 09:53:04 AM »
Mike:

Like most others on here I too have no idea what MacWood's list of public courses is all about or what point he thinks he's making with it but at least I suppose it's comforting to know that he thinks he's learned something by researching it to compile it.

As for your list on Post #102 I would nominate it for one of the classic posts on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com. It is totally hilarious. I can just see some future over-arching researchers/analysts a hundred years from now, like MacWood and Moriarty are today, trying to make some big deal out of those theretofore unknown architects Moriarty and MacWood and how they somehow must have been unfairly over-looked in what they did in their time as evidenced by their inclusion on your list on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com in June 2010.  
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 09:56:41 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #112 on: June 30, 2010, 10:13:24 AM »
I added Tam O'Shanter in Canton. I had mistakenly thought it had been a private club originally.

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Hyde Park, Fl (1924) - S.Thompson
Bobby Jones (1926) - D.Ross
Tarpon Springs (1927) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Savanah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1934) - A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Ottawa Park (1898/1908) - S.Jermain
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1917) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
Nemadji Muni (1932) - S.Pelchar
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White

Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #113 on: June 30, 2010, 01:03:34 PM »
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 03:14:30 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #114 on: June 30, 2010, 06:11:56 PM »
My mistake, David...thanks for pointing it out.   I guess I didn't see that one in going through all the years.

You didn't see the second tournament on the short list (1922-36) that you posted?   You were in such a hurry to stretch some irrelevancy beyond all reasonableness (highest qualifying score implies best course???) that you didn't even bother to get your facts right.   Typical.

Also typical are your attempts to undermine and ridicule Tom MacWood's list in defense of your asinine "factual" statement about Cobbs.  You even have the nerve to call these courses "rudimentary," as if Ross, MacKenzie, Tillinghast, Thomas, Bell, Egan, etc. were building rudimentary courses in the 1920s and 30s.   There are some very good courses on this list, Mike.  It is hardly a catch all.   Just because you've played a few listed courses 80 years (and who knows what changes) after the fact, you are by no means an expert regarding the quality of public courses that existed at the time.   


_______________________________________________________________________________


David
I couldn't find anything on Westwood. Is that Montebello Park? I'm adding both Sunset Fields courses; they were both top notch. Originally I'd thought they had been private before going public (like Fox Hills), but I confirmed they began as public courses. The Harding course at Griffith Park was the course I was including. The first 18 at Pasadena was the superior course from all accounts. Bell added 9 holes in 1930, which was referred to as a practice nine, and then some point another nine was added. I'm not sure when or by whom.

"Westwood Public Golf Course" (that was its name) opened in the late 1920's (fall of 1927) but like the Sunset Fields courses which opened around the same time, it is NLE.    As you know, economics and demographics took a heavy toll on California golf in the 30's and 40's.   Westwood was a  privately owned "pay as you go" public course, par 71 (6120 yards) over a rolling site between Pico and Santa Monica Blvd, reportedly just under 200 acres.  Its neighbors were Fox Studio to the West, LACC to the North, Hillcrest CC to the South, Rancho Park to the Southwest, and Beverly Hills High School to the East.  Today the site is Century City.   

Hard to tell how good it was, but it certainly had the makings of a good course -- plenty of rolling land well suited for golf and a quality designer.   Behr, of course, was delighted with the course and thought that every hole bubbled over with character.  Reportedly, the bunkers were made to look as if they were formed by nature and the greens blended in with the surrounds.

At the time, one could have golfed from Sunset Blvd to just north of what is now the Santa Monica Freeway, golfing from course to course across LACC North, LACC South, Westwood Public, Hillcrest Country Club, Rancho Park, and California Country Club (plus two par three courses.)
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #115 on: June 30, 2010, 10:09:47 PM »
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« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 04:27:57 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #116 on: June 30, 2010, 10:31:26 PM »
Mike
Do you actually believe Cobbs Creek was the best, most challenging public course built in America between 1916 and 1936? If you do, you should know there are a lot of people outside Philadelphia who think you are full of it...people in Western Pa, Illinois, Florida, Indiana, North Carolina, Wisconsin, Texas, Oregon, Michigan, New York, California and Ohio.

Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #117 on: June 30, 2010, 10:50:45 PM »
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« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 04:28:16 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #118 on: June 30, 2010, 10:55:51 PM »
Because you spend 90% of your time spreading propaganda...do you think we are all idiots outside Philly?  

Do you actually believe Cobbs Creek was the best, most challenging public course built in America between 1916 and 1936?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 10:57:37 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #119 on: June 30, 2010, 10:59:42 PM »
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« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 04:28:36 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #120 on: June 30, 2010, 11:02:52 PM »
Mike
Check out this thread and you tell me if you think this is a representative list of the best public courses for that period. I think it is an exceedingly weak effort and I think everyone knows why.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44812.0/

Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #121 on: June 30, 2010, 11:12:24 PM »
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« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 04:28:58 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #122 on: June 30, 2010, 11:14:13 PM »
Mike,

I don't care what you think and I doubt MacWood does, either.   But I do care about what others think and know about golf architecture, particularly the history of golf architecture in America, and I'd prefer is that history was accurate and open.  So when you and a few of your Philadelphia brethren obfuscate the record and even just make shit up, I care.  

Is it really too much to ask that you back up your "factual" claims with actual facts?   I guess in Philadelphia it is.  

Fact is, in your never ending quest to aggrandize  Cobb's reputation, you made an asinine claim about Cobbs with little or no basis.  We called you on it and you have been lashing out ever since.  

Unlike you and your Cobbs fluff jobs, MacWood actually took the time to provide some interesting and useful information.   Of course your response is to ridicule the list, ridicule the courses, pretend you meant something else.  You even ridiculed the fact that MacWood took the time to do the research -- research you should have done before you made your idiotic claim.

All proof that you are not really interested in facts, at least not when they conflict with your phacts.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #123 on: June 30, 2010, 11:17:09 PM »
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« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 04:29:15 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #124 on: June 30, 2010, 11:29:57 PM »
Mike
Didn't you say that CC was the best, most challenging public course up until the creation of Bethpage? This must be simple misunderstanding. You actually meant to say CC was the best, most challenging public course up until six year before the creation of Bethpage?

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