[Nick Campanelli]

I am a young professional (currently a landscape architect, 26 yrs old) looking to pursue a career in Golf Course Architecture.  Out of curiosity and with interest in seeing other’s career paths, how did your career in golf course architecture evolve?  It seems that most people I speak with in the profession have gone about it differently…

[Ally Mcintosh]

Take any job in the golf course industry to get a foot in / experience... (greenkeeping and certainly construction)

Do as much relevant education as you can fit in / afford...

Meet and get to know as many people as possible...

Those to me seem like the only three ways... certainly two of them would be needed, preferably all three...

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think greenkeeping is a big plus, you must know how a course is constructed and how it is maintained.

As a way in I would look to learn a language like Korean, thats going to be where the work is for the next 10 years, speaking a language will really help to get you work on a construction project and jobs should repeat from there and give you the schooing for when you might want to go it alone.

Theres probably almost a zero chance anyone new is going to break through in the west in the next 10 yeas given the climate.

Another way in I would learn how to operate a D5. As a shaper you can get work and if you have a design flair it will be easy to communicate your ideas into a real design, but remember you must understand what the architect is looking for firstly, if it goes well you build a trust with that architect and you get on the team eventually you make yourself indispensable.

I woud probaby totally be against college courses for the time being as I think being in the field and experience will be worth more than theory for the limited amount of work kicking around. You need to dedicate 10 years of your life and make some big social scarifices. Its vey hard to make it.

I got involved via being a golf professional then went into greenkeeping and eventually starting working with many golf clubs as a consultant, I took the gamble in 1989 when it was boom time and got lucky.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Nick,

My story is one that has oft been told...no wait it hasn't. Its too long to type out but you can call if you like.  I started at age 12 pestering gca's, but there is no reason that won't work at age 26 either.  I got an LA degree, which you have. I did work summers at a golf course and did some landscape architecture while in college, too.  But, my first job out of college was with a gca.

I actually tend to disagree with the "take any job" advice.  In my experience a lot of young guys who start in construction get stuck in construction.  If you want to work for a gca, pester a gca. Its all a matter of timing.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I actually tend to disagree with the "take any job" advice.  In my experience a lot of young guys who start in construction get stuck in construction.  If you want to work for a gca, pester a gca. Its all a matter of timing.

But don't they get stuck in construction because they let themselves?... If you see construction as an absolute key element to understanding the design process and your 100% goal is to be a designer, then it is an almost invaluable step i would have thought?...

It goes back to how much you want it and what you're willing to sacrifice...

[Adrian_Stiff]

 I agree with Ally, you must get out there and if you can only get a job picking poa out of a green at least its a start. No architect is going to take anyone on without any experience, almost always a job is going to involve significant lodging costs.
Getting into maintenance is fairy easy working on a golf course crew and a year or so is going to give you some great experience.
I think really trying to be a golf course architect in 2010 is probably a crazy idea. There is virtually no work and it could be a very long time in the western world before investors to golf are looking at new projects, just think how many current projects are on the shelf ready to go. Most golf course architects will be doing something else from now on and many will never do another full project so unless you want to go East I am not upbeat about the buisness for estabished archies let alone newcomers.

[Joshua Pettit]

Take any job in the golf course industry to get a foot in / experience... (greenkeeping and certainly construction)

Do as much relevant education as you can fit in / afford...

Meet and get to know as many people as possible...

Those to me seem like the only three ways... certainly two of them would be needed, preferably all three...

Ally is pretty much on point, as he is referencing WORK EXPERIENCE, EDUCATION, and NETWORKING.  All three are essential.  And you can certainly begin to tackle all three simultaneously, but as Adrian mentions, it will require A LOT of time and sacrifice.  I think every dedicated architect will agree that as long as you are in this business the need to WORK, LEARN, and NETWORK will never cease.  That is simply the way you need to think -- at all times.

As an LA I assume you have a degree (which is good) but like Adrian I wouldn't suggest pursuing any additional academic programs.  The best way I learned to LEARN Golf Architecture is through independent study.  READ as many books and other literature as you can on a variety of topics (Architecture, Construction, Agronomy, etc.)

VISIT as many golf courses as you possibly can.  Even if you can't play.  Even if it might not be a great course (especially early on in your career).  Analyze them -- What features do you like or dislike, and why?  What works well in your mind, and what doesn't?  These are things you should always be thinking about.  Contact superintendents and/or club managers/secretaries any where you go.  Introduce yourself and ask permission to walk the golf course and take some photos (if they allow cameras).  Keep ALL your photos for reference.  They will prove to be an invaluable resource down the road.

Almost without exception, every time I travel I find a way to visit at least one course I haven't seen before.  I have thousands upon thousands of photos from courses, and each time I revisit a particular reel it gets me thinking about something different.  They can be a great source of inspiration.

Best of luck with your endeavor.

Cheers,

Josh

P.S.  Here is my professional progression:

CART BARN -> PRO SHOP -> MAINTENANCE -> CONSTRUCTION -> ARCHITECTURE (design, construction & consulting)

And throw in a BSLA degree in the equation ^

[Stuart Hallett]

I tend to agree with Ally.
As time goes by I am convinced that the ability to design & build is a huge advantage. It's sometimes hard to justify signing plans, billing clients, & then hoping the contractor is not going to make a mess of it. A hands on approach helps you understand site specific problems & what can be done, or not. Making decisions, being flexible, and trying not to loose your head when the site looks like a battle field.
Greenkeeping experience is a big help. Choices of construction materials or seeds can be made lightly, and once you've suffered the consequences of bad choices while maintaining on a daily basis, then you tend to be more careful. The maintainence can make your work look either great, or really awful ! That's the harsh reality.

I studied at ECA which I found very useful. The guys had different backgrounds, but everyone had something to offer. I learnt a lot from them, not only in class but also while chatting down the pub.

I'd say that motivation & passion is half the battle.
Good luck !      

[Nick Campanelli]

All,

Excellent advise, and unfortunately nothing I haven't heard before. Its always interesting hearing how people get where they are in life.  

I am currently in a typical landscape architectural role (urban design in Boston).  Its about as far from golf as i can possibly be, and took the job only to get back to New England....its starting to take its tole.  I have been looking for construction jobs throughout New England for the past year or two with no luck (thanks to the economy).    

Josh, i definitely agree with you about experiencing and playing as many courses as possible.  Im one of those people that cant play the same course twice in one year and am willing to travel good distances to find a new course.  My photo library and scorecard collection are also pretty extensive!   

If anyone has worked in the New England area, and knows any contacts in the construction side of the business, I would appreciate the opportunity to talk.  As we all know, any advice or help goes a long way!  

Nick  

[Neal_Meagher]

A common theme here will be that of attaining a landscape architecture degree as entree to the profession of golf architecture.  Like the esteemed Mr. Brauer I am also one who chose that route, but unlike the esteemed Mr. Brauer I was not able to go to work right away for a full-time golf architect.

My first post-school gig was with Kevin Tucker in Nashville, TN who did practice some golf architecture at the time but most of my work there was doing pure landscape design which wasn't cuttin it for me, being a 23 year old know-it-all so I left that firm after one year.  I then went to work for a very large multi-disciplinary firm in Nashville for the next 3 years getting the know how bigger projects come together because this firm had engineers, architects, planners, surveyors, and oh yeah, at the bottom of the totem pole, landscape architects.

I count this as a very valuable time even though it was frustrating as all I wanted to do was golf.  But it did teach me how to interact with the other design professionals, how to read their plans and how to read them as people, especially the engineers with whom golf architects almost invariably need to work with on most projects.  There is simply so much to know about the big and little things that go into taking a project from inception to completion and to be on the inside with a firm that does nearly all of that work was invaluable, now looking back over 20 years.  It was this very education, in fact, that allowed me to talk Bob Graves into hiring me as a full-time golf architect in 1988. 

So, there you have it, just another route to this exciting and growing profession.  Note dripping sarcasm.

[Joshua Pettit]

Im one of those people that cant play the same course twice in one year and am willing to travel good distances to find a new course.    
 

By the same token, there are many great courses I could play or walk every day, and learn something new from each time.  Its not just about quantitative experience, but more about thought process.  

[Nick Campanelli]

By the same token, there are many great courses I could play or walk every day, and learn something new from each time.  Its not just about quantitative experience, but more about thought process.  

I agree.  I my opinion (and i know im not alone here), a great course and/ or hole should present something new every time a player tees it up.  Studying why some courses fail to provide options or new challenges is equally as important to me.  

I grew up in Northern CT.  Many of the courses in the area were designed by Geoffrey Cornish in the 1950's-70's.  You can study the changes in his design style throughout the latter parts of his career by simply playing all of the courses in the area.      

[Michael Blake]

Article in Paul Daley's great series Golf Architecture vol III on non-traditional paths to becoming a GCA.

http://www.mnuzzo.com/pdf/GAVIII.pdf

[Neil_Crafter]

Nick, a slightly different way for me. I'm a second generation GCA as my father was a golf professional who did golf course design as a sideline, so I grew up with my father sketching plans on the kitchen table and visited lots of golf courses with him. After high school I got a degeree as an architect, and practiced as one for about 10 years or so after graduation. In the meantime I was helping my father out part time and gradually built up the golf side until such point I was nearly able to work full time in GCA. Unfortunately my father then died of cancer which obviously was a blow and a couple of years later was able to work full time as a GCA. Effectively had on the job training from my father and what I was able to pick up by reading and studying. There are a few GCAs who are architects as well, Tony Cashmore, Ross Perrett are two here in Australia. It taught me design skills and contract administration expertise.

[paul cowley]

Start working in a plant nursery at at age 12.

Start working in landscape construction and masonry at age 14

Start working framing structures at age 16

Start your first company at age 18 as a stone mason.

Start greens keeping at age 20 at Pebble Beach, primarily to get a knowledge of GCA.

Start a plant center primarily to grow and sell chrysanthemums at age 22

Start a landscape company at age 24.

Grow your company to three states at age 30.

Become a company that includes LA and land planning and construction for resort development at age 35.

Form a company to concentrate on resort construction, building design. land planning, and golf course design at age 38.

Through the land planning and construction experience, become acquainted with a professional golfer who has similar aspirations towards golf design at age 40.

Open your first course at age 42....and continue to do so until age 58.

Continue to develope and landplan conservation communities until age 58.




This is by no way a blueprint as how to how one approaches golf course designer status.

Probably wouldn't recommend it for most.

It's tuff and still is.

[Tom_Doak]

I actually tend to disagree with the "take any job" advice.  In my experience a lot of young guys who start in construction get stuck in construction.  If you want to work for a gca, pester a gca.

Or you could get stuck in a design office as a CAD monkey without ever learning how to build a golf course.

Nick,

The simple answer to this [as Paul Cowley alluded] is that you just have to fight and find your own way.  For the past 15 years there has been this supposed blueprint of how to get in the business, and now there are way too many guys with the same background and not nearly enough work to go around.

This afternoon I am at Askernish in the remotest part of Scotland, looking over a course that a handful of locals managed to create [mow out] for practically zero dollars.  They only have a maintenance crew of two men who struggle to keep up with the work, the biggest part of which seems to be fixing rabbit holes.  What they really need most is not an architect, but a platoon of young guys like yourself to come over here for a couple of months and do the labor necessary to solidify the course and put it on the map, so it can grow and thrive.  [As it is, they've had a bunch of guys come over for a few days and help out just enough to include it on their resumes, which is not so much help.]

It won't pay much of anything but it is an Opportunity for someone who can see it.

I also think you need to be more specific about your true objective.  No offense, but "I want to pursue a career in golf course architecture," is not what I am looking to hear.  Damn near everyone on this discussion group (and a lot more besides them) would love to make their living at golf course architecture, if only the chance were handed to them.  The people who will succeed are the ones who are aiming even higher than that.

[Michael Taylor]

Thanks for all the replies thus far. Seems there are many different ways to get into the buisness.

I'd like to become involved in this stuff someday, but it looks like the easiest way might be to force myself into it without anyone noticing. 

I'm intently waiting on more stories.

Pup

[Mike_Young]

Nick,
So many different ways to get in the business....
But I really don't know if the GCA  profession exist anymore.....
I wanted to do it from a young age and worked at the local golf course and "helped" watched" as the golf professional built his own golf course.
I was told by a site supervisor at a course I was watching under construction that I should go to work for a turf equipment company if I wanted to see the business...I thought he was crazy....but eventually I did....it gave me an "excuse" to call on architects/constrcution and supts as well as green chairs and clubs....do it and you will see the entire business...but you better be able to sell.  I would suggest this might be a safer route in todays environment...just don't get stuck in it...
The other thing is...how bad do you want it....
There is so much BS thrown around about how to go about it but in the end you have to put it on the ground and open it...drawings don't count....

[Nick Campanelli]

I also think you need to be more specific about your true objective.  No offense, but "I want to pursue a career in golf course architecture," is not what I am looking to hear.  Damn near everyone on this discussion group (and a lot more besides them) would love to make their living at golf course architecture, if only the chance were handed to them.  The people who will succeed are the ones who are aiming even higher than that.

Tom,

Thanks for the advice and your concern.  I apologize if I came across as being naive.  The reason for the simple career description above was not to treat this thread as a advertisement for myself, but simply to listen to other GCA's stories.  I appreciate your concern for my treating the profession as commonplace, but that idea is far from the truth.  

I have been deeply interested in Golf Course Architecture since i was 10 years old, and based my college education around the subjects i felt would serve me best to begin a path toward that career.  I am currently working toward licensure as a Landscape Architect, one personal goal of many I set when i began college 8 years ago.  I am actively testing the waters for golf construction jobs to gain on-site experience as well.  I am not looking to follow the "blueprint" per say (realizing there is no one way to achieve most goals), but am trying to mold a career path that set me up for opportunities down the road.    

Best of luck in Scotland!

-Nick

[Nick Campanelli]

Mike,

On a side note, excellent signature!  How big is your wolf pack now?  Haha 

[Jeff_Brauer]

I actually tend to disagree with the "take any job" advice.  In my experience a lot of young guys who start in construction get stuck in construction.  If you want to work for a gca, pester a gca.

Or you could get stuck in a design office as a CAD monkey without ever learning how to build a golf course.

Nick and TD,

I am not saying construction knowledge isn't important and most of the guys who stuck with me long term got that as one of the first jobs with me, either via a full time supervision agreement with the owner or being put to work on a construction crew, preferably staking out plans that they had a hand in drawing in the office to see how those actually worked out in the field.  To me, that is the way to give someone design and related field experience.

The other aspect of starting in construction is that design talent and construction talent are about as related as design talent and golfing ability.  Even if working in constuction gets you in the door of a design office (as it has for some) in my experience there is often a lot of competition to be the top design associate, get to work on the best projects, etc.  If you get in and can't design your way out of a paper bag, I am not so sure you are going to move up the ladder faster by having laid a mile of drain tile, which would be your experience working for a big contractor. OH, you might get on the staking crew which would be more valuble IMHO, which would be a help.  At least you could see how other gca's design ideas translate. 

The winners in those office battles are the ones who can route and design anyway.  I guess if working for TD or Pete Dye, you would really be working in a design firm, but the need to design well is still inherent to survive. Either way, if you get stuck as a CAD jockey or a bunker edger, in a plans or field oriented firm, after being hired as a gca design associate, it means you lost the competition, so you weren't perhaps cut out to be a designer anyway.  And, if you were hired as a CAD jockey, you probably got your chance, but you will probably lose your job to some guy in India in the not too distant future.....

Just my $0.03 on the matter.  I realize that all of us are going to state (as was asked) how WE got in the biz and it can happen a lot of ways.  Since he has started down the LA route, it makes sense to build on his strengths, although working construction would also perhaps "fill in the gaps" of his knowledge.

[Ron Farris]

....... how did your career in golf course architecture evolve?

   age 10 pull weeds out of a new green in the Sand Hills of Nebraska (1967) on course my father was a "greenkeeper"
   dream of being a golfer, practice in cow pasture behind house (1967-1970), play as much as possible (mow greens, mow fairways, play golf)
   build numerous 9 hole courses in back yard with brother - digging holes and hitting balls to them with clubs taken from real golf course
   School of Golf Operations - Lake City, FL - to be a golf course superintendent, (1979-981)
   intern with Bobby Weed at Long Cove Club, Hilton Head Island, SC.  Pete Dye was the architect. Crew consisted of numerous talented turf-head and landscape architect student or interns who went on to be golf course architects, including Bobby, Tom Doak, Dave Savic, Scott Pool.
   Worked for PGA Tour as Assitant Superintendent during the formative years of TPC courses (TPC Plum Creek, Castle Rock, CO *no longer in existance as a TPC course).
   Worked as Project Manager for Dye in Japan during golf construction boom.  Downsized - Japanese offered me a job to design a course.  I said why not, I will give it a try.  Learned the business the hard way.
   Spend my time with family - pulling weeds out of the yard.

Good Luck

[Tim Nugent]

Born in Dayton, OH on RB Harris project my father was project architect on.

Went to courses with Dad as a tyke.  Loved it when operators would let me ride along.

When I was old enough, got to help survey (the dumb end).

Graduated to rock-picker, bunker edger, ditch digger.

Caddied spring and fall weekends at Onwensia

Worked for Landscape construction co. (who also ran a public course and used it as their base of operations - so some days worked gc maintenance, others - commercial LA constr.

@18, worked for union sewer/water construction co.  Was deemed valuable because I could survey and do layout.

Spent too long in college but ended up at ASU - College of Engineering and got a degree in Construction Management.  Worked stints for Wadsworth Golf Construction (Desert Highlands, The Boulders) and Dye Designs (Red Mountain Ranch).  Came back to Chicago to  be CM for Golf Club of Illinois. 

After college, worked for ENR Top 100 Building Construction co - Linbeck Con. Houston (in Phoenix).

Went to Grad School - MBA, Interned State of AZ - Energy Office

After grad school, was working for a Construction Management Co. in Los Angles doing construction claims and scheduling when Dad asked me to come back to Chi-town and run a 3-course, fast-track project (Geneva National).  Lead a 4-person CM dept. instituted CAD and eventually began to do more and more design as we began down-sizing in the 90's, while still overseeing the field operations.  Have been flying solo for 10 yrs. 

Dissenfrancised with the watered down quality of big golf construction co's and getting stuck in the middle of contractors and owners, began to get more hands on and update my operating experience (from the early days) in order to be able to do design/build. 

Also, was involved as an owner and operator of a course for 15 yrs and got to use it as a laboratory to try design and agronomic
ideas (on my own nickel - not some clubs)

So, at age 49, I can safely assert that I have finally got to the point where I can and have done every facit of golf course development.

At age 26, you have a ways to go - and like many, you will find that there are different ways to get there.  If you are married, good luck, because the amount of travel, low pay, and time away from home will be a big problem, magnified by childern.  The life in the golf course development business is one of a traveler (or nomad) depending on how you or yoour firm operates.  But, you will probably find that it is rare that GC Architects come into their own until their 40's.  Until then, they are still assembling the pieces of the knowledge and experience necessary to be well-rounded enough to confidently perform the task.

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:

To your last point, I would say that a lot of guys are prepared to design something great in their 30's, but they are unlikely to get many chances at it because all of the clients are in their 40s or 50s [or older], and are less likely to hit it off with a young architect than with someone their own age.

But, certainly, the more experience one has honing his craft, the more ready he is to get a great course on the ground when the opportunity does come.

[Jeffrey Stein]

As one of many aspiring golf architects I can say that I too am facing the question, how do I get in the business?  I am an economics major from a small liberal arts school and I have at least learned the concept of supply and demand for associate designers.  I have also learned that one has to be completely unreasonable and politely annoying if you want to get anywhere in this business.  

I pestered Mr. Doak and his associates about finding me a construction job for months before I got lucky to work on the Old Mac crew (mainly as a green keeper as the golf course was half in play and half in construction).  This great news came months after I flew from Newark to Atlanta to Flint, jumped in a rental car and drove to the parking lot at High Pointe, slept in my car for a couple of hours and was first off the tee at 7am.  I then got some coffee, introduced myself to Mr. Doak at his office, and was treated to lunch.  He also sent me up to Crystal Downs afterwards for another incredible experience.

Even after I was offered the job by the super at Old Mac I still had to drive across country and leave NYC behind to live in little ol' Bandon.  So far my unreasonable attitude has taken me to some great courses in Monterrey and San Fran, Cape Kidnappers and some other fine tracks in NZ.  Australia is next, and you can be sure to find me in Scotland in the coming year.

The next unreasonable play seems to be re-learning the Chinese I forgot in school that I never thought would come in handy...
  

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