[Emil Weber]

don't you have to expect subtleness through and through and a course that just might offer you more and more each time you play it?

At least that is my take and what I am expecting to see when I get up there in a few weeks.

Mac,

I've thought about the argument of "enjoying a course the more and more you play it", and came to the conclusion that if a club charges  a sum of 300$ for their greenfee, that argument is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. How many golfers can afford to play Pinehurst multiple times? Even if you could, is it worth paying 300 $ every time?

[Matthew Sander]

Emil,

I agree with you that Pinehurst's price tag is an unfortunate coupling for a "subtle, appreciate over time" course. However, that does not change what is on the ground.  Pinehurst's greatness may very well be (haven't played it) in its subtlety that reveals itself over time. Regardless of the $ amount, this is probably the case. It only means that a select few will have the opportunity to experience the course enough times to gain that full appreciation. I guess in that way it is not unlike an exclusive private club...

[jonathan_becker]

In case anyone cares, I had wondered what the "day of play" rate was for #2. 

After calling the resort.... to show up and golf #2 without staying overnight will cost you $405.

[Carr Harris]

In case anyone cares, I had wondered what the "day of play" rate was for #2. 

After calling the resort.... to show up and golf #2 without staying overnight will cost you $405.

I'd rather play 72 holes at Tobacco Road for the same amount of money.

[Thomas Patterson]

In case anyone cares, I had wondered what the "day of play" rate was for #2. 

After calling the resort.... to show up and golf #2 without staying overnight will cost you $405.

Prices like this are what is wrong with U.S. golf..............

[John Mayhugh]

Jim,
Interesting observations.  I appreciate the "frank commentary" and think that's where real discussion comes from. 

One of the things I really like at Holston Hills (which I play far too infrequently) is the use of fairway bunkering.  So it's hard for me to think about Pinehurst being bland up to the green complexes.  Yet it's been so long since I played #2, I couldn't argue one way or the other about the merits of your comments. But I'm glad you made them.


Also, this may the funniest post of the year.

Jim,

I owe you a big apology ! I didn't think you had balls .

[erichunter]

I've thought about the argument of "enjoying a course the more and more you play it", and came to the conclusion that if a club charges  a sum of 300$ for their greenfee, that argument is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. How many golfers can afford to play Pinehurst multiple times? Even if you could, is it worth paying 300 $ every time?

You can join Pinehurst Country Club (for about $12k if buying a Pinehurst lot w/ a membership) and pay approx. $335/month and play #2 as much as you want in addition to Nos. 1, 3, 4, 5, 6. 

There is a lot of discussion on this website about the Scottish/Irish model (inflating guest fees to make dues reasonable for members) and how it opens doors that normally are closed.  Pinehurst is pretty close to it but the sentiment seems to be that Pinehurst is way overpriced.  Not many people complain about the gouging visitors receive in Scotland/Ireland. 

[Scott Warren]

Not many people complain about the gouging visitors receive in Scotland/Ireland. 

Which gouging would that be?

$405 = £265.

The average price of an Open Rota course was £155 or so last summer.

For one round at PH#2 you can play TOC or St George's twice in high season!

Or Dornoch four times.

Or North Berwick five times.

Etc...

And that's not even taking advantage of even more attractive Day Ticket rates.

I think the "gouge" is being well and truly exaggerated in this instance.

[Anthony Gray]

  Is it a Resort Course? And doesn't it play through a neighborhood?

r 8 *(Arg
?

[Mark Pritchett]

P.S.  Never bring a knife to a gun fight.

Jim,

No fight intended, I was just trying to get a feel for what courses you were comparing to Pinehurst.

Mark

[Anthony Gray]

  Quirk me more.

 Anthony

[mike_beene]

I love the flatish sandy nature of the place. I don't get this "the holes aren't memorable." Every time I play it I like it more. Never losing a ball there is refreshing.

[RJ_Daley]

Wow, with THAT list of 50 you've played that you'd rank above PH#2, you couldn't have suffered buyer's regret. 

But, I think those above that speak of subtlety and discovery of playing strategies and features that may only come with time, I guess that makes sense to me. 

Also, as an 18HC and a first timer, I assume you played it at a sensible yardage.  If played from the tips, probably with rough that is counter to what Ross would have desired to present as his design intent when US Opens where played there, Payne won at -1 and Campbell at E.  So, from the tips at toon-a-mint conditions, it can't be a powder puff.  I also feel that the acknowledgement of there being 18 fabulous greens seems counterintuitive to any course being seen as underwhelming, flat or not.  My local area has a course with great greens, complexes and more or less flatish unremarkable FWs, but I think the approach shots are so much fun that it can't be underwhelming due to general flatness.

But, frank commentary it is from Jim, and well appreciated. 


Is there any possibility that there is a dynamic at work that for most anyone that pays $400 day fee, or $275 and very expensive lodging, that no one will actually admit that they didn't care for it?  Sort of like all those folks that always say they broke even in Vegas?

[Sean_A]

All this talk of subtlety?  THERE IS NOTHING SUBTLE ABOUT THE GREENS.  They are viscous and obviously so when standing even in prime position on the fairways.  I also don't buy that the course is flat.  There terrain is excellent for golf even if some of the sandy nature of the site has been lost.  Tee to green Pinehurst is a masterpiece.  My beef is with the greens - too many leave the exact same recovery and they don't in the least resemble what Ross typically built.  The push-up greens with sharp fall-offs is great idea pushed too far imo.  Looking at Dunlop White's site and seeing what the greens should look like (in a word - Ross greens) is a revelation.  Even with the criticism of the greens, #2 is a good course.  I ain't paying the going rate to find out how good it is.  Plus, I hated the atmosphere of the place - it was golf's version of Disney World (not unlike St Andrews).  The clubhouse is architecturally organized like an amateur was let loose for the day.  In short, the course and the experience are not what they could be and fall well short of the huge price tag.

Ciao 

[JC Jones]

Jim,

nice top 50.  Though I wonder if Riviera is in there simply because of Sugar Ray ?

I'm hoping we can add a few to that list in our trip in July!!

[rjsimper]

I've played #2 twice. The first time I was blown over by the greens and had a few points where I thought it was goofy golf. The second time I was able to enjoy it more as an actual golf course and appreciate more of the subtle features, the routing, and the fact that many of the holes are just flat-out good without standing out (aside from 5, which is a world-class hole)

I think there's something to be said for a course of whose you can't formulate an accurate opinion after a first play. I'm not saying that your opinion would change, Jim, as there are plenty who know the course well that agree with you...but Pinehurst to me is kind of interesting - it's a course that SEEMS easy to get, but in actuality it's quite a challenge to understand. I'm playing again in June and I'm excited.

I'd probably rather play Newport than Pinehurst also, but I feel like that might be more because Newport is more "exotic" and not necessarily because the course is better.

LACC in it's current form...definitely exceeded by Pinehurst in their current forms.  Redesigned LACC? TBD.

[Jim Thornton]

RJ Daley-

As an 18 handicap, I follow the Clint Eastwood maxim - "a man's got to know his limitations".  I played No. 2 from 6200 yards (white tees).  I've never been one to let pride get in the way of my capabilities.  We played Forest Creek while I was there and 3 guys in my group played from the blue tees while I played from the white tees...I wasn't bothered in the least and neither were they.

[RJ_Daley]

Jim, by any lchance did you play #8 also, while you were there?  Notably, Forrest Creek didn't make it in your top 50  .

Were the course conditions a factor for you?  I'm assuming that coming into spring and after harsh winter as I understand it, even down there, I am curious if it may have played soft and slow which might have been a little disappointing in terms of ball action on FWs, just maybe sticking where landed rather than any rollout factor.  Did you find the bunker placements and any deception of distances of bunker from greens a factor?

[Mark Chaplin]

Eric - couldn't one argue that the "gouging" you claim in GB was due to the strength of the pound which is slowly crashing and certainly the strength of the euro in Ireland both against a very weak dollar.

Just looking at decent courses I can go and play tomorrow PB $495 + cart, Pinehurst No. 2 $405, Doral $210-325 & Harbour Town $295 all for a round I think you are lightly gouged at best in Scotland.

At many great UK courses you can get overseas membership for a year for less than the price of a round at PB

[Derek_Duncan]

All this talk of subtlety?  THERE IS NOTHING SUBTLE ABOUT THE GREENS.  They are viscous and obviously so when standing even in prime position on the fairways. 

Sean,

You are right, there's nothing very subtle about the green complexes, at least around the edges. But the appeal of No. 2 is subtle, as in, to appreciate or even love the course you have to do a lot of the heavy lifting yourself--it's not done spectacularly for you. The way the greens set up in relation to the approaches and hole shapes is not something the average resort player easily, or is often willing, to grasp in one go-round.

I still can't get away from the $$ factor. Given its lofty ranking, I totally can see how it's a letdown to the traveler when they're paying $250-$400 or whatever. For that price its charms are quite subtle compared to the competition in that $$ range, like Pebble Beach, The Ocean Course and TPC Sawgrass. You don't have to do much at those courses other than behold the spectacle.

[Jud_T]

In case anyone cares, I had wondered what the "day of play" rate was for #2. 

After calling the resort.... to show up and golf #2 without staying overnight will cost you $405.

Prices like this are what is wrong with U.S. golf..............

It's called a free market.  If you think it's a rip-off you are free to not pay it.  If enough people don't pay the full guest rate, it will come down.  As long as tourists are willing to pony up, the price will be what the market will bear...

[Rory Connaughton]

I can't imagine too many people actually pay $405 and the resort typically offers approx $200 in credit that can be applied to the cost of the round if you are on a package so while the resort is not cheap the overall cost of playing No. 2 for a resort guest need not be outrageous.

[Jim Thornton]

RJ Daley-

I did not play Pinehurst 8, but we played Pinehurst 4, which I thought was a very solid course but certainly not what I would consider "great".  Forest Creek on the other hand was very impressive and came within a whisker of making my Top 50.

With regard to conditions at Pinehurst 2, the greens and fairways were in good condition, but most of the rough was still dormant due to unseasonably cool conditions this year.  They have had a lot of rain the area recently, so all the courses I played were on the wet side with no appreciable roll out.  With respect to your question about deception of distances on bunkers, I noticed it on a few holes but it didn't seem to be a huge factor.

[Jim_Kennedy]

"They (P#2-greens) are viscous and obviously so when standing even in prime position on the fairways." - Sean Arble

The most succinct and best description I've ever read (or heard) of those greens !

[erichunter]

Eric - couldn't one argue that the "gouging" you claim in GB was due to the strength of the pound which is slowly crashing and certainly the strength of the euro in Ireland both against a very weak dollar.

Just looking at decent courses I can go and play tomorrow PB $495 + cart, Pinehurst No. 2 $405, Doral $210-325 & Harbour Town $295 all for a round I think you are lightly gouged at best in Scotland.

At many great UK courses you can get overseas membership for a year for less than the price of a round at PB

I absolutely agree the pricing was excessive in part due to the exchange rate.  I don't begrudge any Club charging what the market will bear.  There seems to be a romantic description of the Irish/Scottish model but when a facsimile is offered here in the US, it is called overpriced.

IMO Pinehurst takes GCA criticisms that are directly or indirectly related due to the greens fee.

Take the Top 20 courses in the US and assume they allow guest play but at a steep rate, say $400+, how long would it take for people to start poking holes in the GCA of those clubs because suddenly it isn't worth it?  There have been numerous posts on here taking shots at Pebble which I don't understand from a GCA point of view but I totally understand from a $$$ point of view.  

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