[Jim Thornton]

After many years of dreaming about seeing and playing Pinehurst No. 2, I made the pilgrimage to Pinehurst this past weekend for the first time.  I have read voluminous reviews of Pinehurst No. 2, and they were universally effusive in their praise.  It was against this backdrop that I teed it up on a beautiful spring day to finally see first hand the magic that Pinehurst No. 2 is known for.  If ever there was a chamber of commerce day, this was it....65 degrees, bright sun, and a gentle breeze through the pines.  We walked with caddies, and the round was a very reasonable 4.5 hours.  My individual taste in GCA definitely leans towards the classics, so I was fully prepared to fall in love at first sight...sadly, that was not the case.  I walked off the 18th green with this sentiment - Pinehurst No. 2 is by far the most underwhelming experience I've ever had on a highly regarded golf course.  I'll give it this...18 magnificent green complexes that are unparalleled among all the courses I've ever played.  But that's about it...beyond the green complexes, I found the course to be quite bland and lacking in character.  Of all the "great" courses I've played, I can easily remember every hole, sometimes for years afterwards.  A scant 3 days later, I can only remember 4 holes on Pinehurst No. 2 - #'s 5, 16, 17, and 18.  

I'm sure I'll be roundly criticized for not recognizing the subtle strategic challenges presented at Pinehurst No. 2, but here's my bet - if there was a way to have somebody play this course without knowing it was the "magical Pinehurst No. 2 with all the history and tradition", I would be astonished if they thought it worthy of being included in a list of the world's great courses.  For me personally, it would be hard pressed to make my top 50.

I'll arm you with a few facts to pummel me with for those of you screaming in righteous indignation.  I played 1 round on the course, so you can fairly challenge that the true character and strategic value is only revealed after several rounds.  I am an 18 handicap, so you can fairly say that the greatness of the course is lost on someone with my mediocre abilities.  Just know this...I have played only 1 round on many other "great courses" with the same 18 handicap and I walked away from the experience immediately recognizing and appreciating the course's greatness.

What am I missing about Pinehurst No. 2?


Jim

P.S.  Coore/Crenshaw have already initiated work on holes 11-14.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jim,

You are not alone. I found it quite unimpressive and very disappointing when I played it a few years back. I see no subtlety of design that would make it live up to its reputation.

[Michael Huber]

I was under the impression that it was one of those courses that you had to play a few times to appreciate the subtlety.  Of course, that is just my impression as I have never played #2

[Anthony Gray]

  I feel the same way Jim. The last place on earth to take a date.

  Anthony

[Tim_Weiman]

Jim,

It has been more than twenty five years since I played Pinehurst #2 for the first time, but I remember feeling a bit like you described after that first round. Pinehurst #2 doesn't really make the best first impression, at least not compared to many other highly rated courses.

After playing the course several more times I had a different view. Here's what changed:

When I first played the course my mind was focused on the view from the tee, but after a few rounds my mind was consumed with thoughts about approach shots and inevitable recovery shots from somewhere around the greens.

Truth be told, St Andrews doesn't usually make the best first impression either.

[Morgan Clawson]

Jim,

I concur.  The greens are really amazing and the setting is very cool.  Most of the holes are fairly flat and it's hard to distinguish one from another.

[Carr Harris]

Pinehurst No. 2 is by far the most underwhelming experience I've ever had on a highly regarded golf course.

Jim I couldn't have ever said it better myself. I played there leading up to the open in 2005 and the place felt like it held absolutely no magic to me whatsoever. Minus a few holes (5,8,15,17) the entire course was pretty darn forgettable. Yes the greens were unlike anything I've seen, but that only takes you so far. I know I certainly would never pay their full going rate to play it again.

[Anthony Gray]

 Those squirles that looked like mercats were cool. I eagled 10. Thought I was laying up with a 5-wood but hit a strong pull that ran on the green. 25 footer to the bottom of the cup. Paris is a much better honeymoon s well as montery or even
kmart parking lot.

  anthoy 4 timer

[John Foley]

I don't know Jimbo - I've LOVED my two rounds at #2.

I think the meandering routing is world class. What little change in topography is there meshes well into the course. The green complexes (and especially the recovery options they afford) are world class. Are they what Ross envisioned or are they too built up over time, did not matter to my experiance. Off the tee it was pretty benign. The rough was not over whelming in either round so my percieved penalty of missing a FW was negligable.

Apple in oranges.

Some love Red wine, some love single malt.

Put me in the LOVE camp for #2.

[JC Jones]

Interestingly, I recently spoke with an old time GCA who said Pinehurst #2 was one of the 5 best courses in the US but that the land was so good, there could have easily been 5 great routing for that same piece of property.

[Rory Connaughton]

There is a fantastic golf course under all that rough.  Before the fairways were narrowed there was an awful lot of interest off the tee as your ball could hit the fairway well towards center and trundle along when suddenly, magically, it was turn left or right 90 degrees and start toward a fairway bunker.  Go back when C&C are finished. I think you will enjoy it more.

[Mark Chaplin]

 I played 1 round on the course, so you can fairly challenge that the true character and strategic value is only revealed after several rounds

Unless your minted or very well connected the days of getting to know the top courses intimately are long gone. It may well affect how golfers measure the top courses in the future.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I walked off the 18th green with with this sentiment - Pinehurst No. 2 is by far the most underwhelming experience I've ever had on a highly regarded golf course.  I'll give it this...18 magnificent green complexes that are unparalleled among all the courses I've ever played.

Those seem to be very opposite take aways.
Were there any not good holes?

[Mark Pritchett]

For me personally, it would be hard pressed to make my top 50.

Just know this...I have played only 1 round on many other "great courses" with the same 18 handicap and I walked away from the experience immediately recognizing and appreciating the course's greatness.

What am I missing about Pinehurst No. 2?


Jim

Jim,

I am curious what 50 courses you would rate/rank above Pinehurst No. 2?

Thanks,

Mark

[Derek_Duncan]

I'll give it this...18 magnificent green complexes that are unparalleled among all the courses I've ever played.  

Jim,

I would think that alone would vault Pinehurst No. 2 toward the top of your all-time list. Without great green complexes, what have you?

Curious, as an 18 handicap player, what did you shoot? And also, what did you pay? I've always thought No. 2 was one of the most mentally stimulating courses I've ever played, but at $250+ green fees I completely understand why many walk away underwhelmed. Most don't want to pay that kind of cheese for "subtlety."

[JESII]

Is there reason to believe the C&C work will widen the course out some?

[Terry Lavin]

I loved Pinehurst #2 the time I played it.  To me (a bit of a heathen), it was like going to church.  I thought it was simple, but sublime, full of charm and mystery.  I loved the look and feel of the place, especially the greens.  It's not an overwhelming piece of property.  There aren't a lot of real scenic or muscled holes, but each is individually very solid.  Based on what I've learned since about sandbelt golf, I think a lot of the turf needs to be replaced by sand, but that's a stylistic fault that Coore and Crenshaw can cure.

As a side note, I loved every course I played at Pinehurst (1, 2, 4, 7, , but I especially LOVED #1.  It was like a miniature Augusta for me.  I am not a long hitter and I had 3 wood wedge into a couple par 4's and I fondly remember a short par three on the front that was visually reminiscent of 12 at ANGC.  It's a perfect course to play with someone old or someone young or to play after you've had your head handed to you on one of the tougher tracks on the property.

[mike_malone]

 Jim,

    I owe you a big apology ! I didn't think you had balls .

[Jim Thornton]

Mike Nuzzo-

I mentioned 4 holes that I thought were memorable - 5, 16, 17, 18.

Mark Pritchett-

Here are 50 courses (in alphabetical order) that I've played and would rate above Pinehurst No. 2:

1.   Ballybunion
2.   Baltimore CC
3.   Bethpage Black
4.   Boston Golf Club
5.   Cal Club
6.   Colonial
7.   Cypress Point
8.   Fisher’s Island
9.   Friar’s Head
10.   Interlachen
11.   LACC North
12.   Lahinch
13.   Maidstone
14.   Merion East
15.   Muirfield
16.   Muirfield Village
17.   Myopia Hunt
18.   New South Wales
19.   Newport CC
20.   NGLA
21.   Oakland Hills South
22.   Oakmont
23.   Old Sandwich
24.   Olympic Lake
25.   Pasatiempo
26.   Peachtree
27.   Pebble Beach
28.   Pine Valley
29.   Piping Rock
30.   Plainfield
31.   Portmarnock
32.   Prairie Dunes
33.   Prestwick
34.   Ridgewood
35.   Riviera
36.   Royal Dornoch
37.   Sand Hills
38.   Sebonack
39.   SFGC
40.   Shadow Creek
41.   Shinnecock Hills
42.   Sleepy Hollow
43.   Somerset Hills
44.   Spyglass
45.   TCC
46.   Teeth of the Dog
47.   TOC
48.   Waterville
49.   Western Gailes
50.   Winged Foot West

P.S.  Never bring a knife to a gun fight.

[Jim Thornton]

Derek Duncan-

Greens alone don't make a great course, at least in my view.  Pine Valley, Oakmont, and NGLA also have 18 great green complexes, but are in a class totally above Pinehurst No. 2 because each hole is memorable on all 3 courses.  Regarding cost, we were on a package deal so it's kind of hard to figure out what we paid, but I suppose it was about $275 plus caddies.

[Jim Thornton]

Mike Malone-

Coming from you, the high priest of "call it like you see it", I am honored.

[Rory Connaughton]

Jim Sullivan,

As I understand it from the Golfweek article, their charge is to return width  restore sandy waste areas, native wiregrass and natural bunker edges; and reduce rough.

“It is not our intent to radically change this golf course,” Coore said in a statement issued by Pinehurst. “We’re trying to uncover it, not recover it. We’re trying to take what Ross left and perhaps bring it back to the character and definition of what was once here. In short, we’ll bring the strategy back, and reinstate its character.”

[Anthony Gray]

Mike Nuzzo-

I mentioned 4 holes that I thought were memorable - 5, 16, 17, 18.

Mark Pritchett-

Here are 50 courses (in alphabetical order) that I've played and would rate above Pinehurst No. 2:

1.   Ballybunion
2.   Baltimore CC
3.   Bethpage Black
4.   Boston Golf Club
5.   Cal Club
6.   Colonial
7.   Cypress Point
8.   Fisher’s Island
9.   Friar’s Head
10.   Interlachen
11.   LACC North
12.   Lahinch
13.   Maidstone
14.   Merion East
15.   Muirfield
16.   Muirfield Village
17.   Myopia Hunt
18.   New South Wales
19.   Newport CC
20.   NGLA
21.   Oakland Hills South
22.   Oakmont
23.   Old Sandwich
24.   Olympic Lake
25.   Pasatiempo
26.   Peachtree
27.   Pebble Beach
28.   Pine Valley
29.   Piping Rock
30.   Plainfield
31.   Portmarnock
32.   Prairie Dunes
33.   Prestwick
34.   Ridgewood
35.   Riviera
36.   Royal Dornoch
37.   Sand Hills
38.   Sebonack
39.   SFGC
40.   Shadow Creek
41.   Shinnecock Hills
42.   Sleepy Hollow
43.   Somerset Hills
44.   Spyglass
45.   TCC
46.   Teeth of the Dog
47.   TOC
48.   Waterville
49.   Western Gailes
50.   Winged Foot West

P.S.  Never bring a knife to a gun fight.

  Cruden Bay

[Mac Plumart]

I love this thread as I am playing #2 next month.  I've studied up on it pretty good and have a fairly decent understanding of Ross' work.  Derek mentioned that most people don't want to pay $275ish for subtlety...but that is what Ross is all about.  So, if you are going to play a Ross course (especially his life's long work) don't you have to expect subtleness through and through and a course that just might offer you more and more each time you play it?

At least that is my take and what I am expecting to see when I get up there in a few weeks.

[Steve Kline]

Is there reason to believe the C&C work will widen the course out some?

Absolutely!!! I've already talked to my dad who has been a member for 20 years and he said the changes are going to be dramatic. He just sent me some photos of holes 11-14 five minutes ago. If I can email them to someone you can post them and I'll describe them as you have to be a little familiar with the course to tell what has changed.

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