[Jay Flemma]

So I just got this from a friend of mine as a gift - Thank you, Elmo! - and am enjoying it immensely.  Those stories of playing at night with the caddies having to locate the balls by the thump on the ground were hysterical, and I still crack up at the thought of Allen Robertson waiting for Morris at 18 so he could fire him:)

"Unfortunately, I ran out of balls..."

...and history was made.  Is this proof of the existence of Golf Gods?

I'm only in a few chapters and will get to the Ideal course and National chapters soon (and the rest), but who else has read it and what do you think are it's most important tenets?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jay,

I just paged through that one again not long ago. I remember going to the U of Illinois library "stacks" to find that book as a senior in college.  They also had many other gca classics, like Colt's little book, which at that time, weren't as readily available as reprints.

I got so engrossed in these (you couldn't take them out of the library I had to read them there) that I almost didn't complete my course work to graduate!  I still recall CBM's ideal course and Colts "Greens shouldn't be contoured so the ball runs from the putter like a swine possessed by the devil" among other great thoughts.

I was glad to get the reprints, because in the first readings as a youth, I didn't really get all the historical background of what CBM was trying to say.  I understand it more now, but still wonder about a lot of it.

[Eric Smith]

One of my favorite books for sure.  Macdonald is impressive in both his skill as a writer and his knowledge of the game, but most of all I am impressed with what he did with that knowledge.  And of course his boldness makes reading him always interesting.

[Jay Flemma]

Jeff...can't wait to see that one:)

[Pete_Pittock]

I have any extra copy.

[JC Jones]

Flynn's book is better and had more of an impact.  Just sayin......

[Brian Phillips]

I have a first edition copy if anyone is interested in buying it?  Almost mint condition...

[TEPaul]

Jay:

Since you're in the process of reading MacDonald's autiobiography "Scotland's Gift Golf" it will be helpful to you and it will make it more interesting and hopefully revealing if you carefully consider what-all he wrote about as well as some of the things he didn't really mention or mentioned fairly briefly that he had done.

For instance, just about as much of the book is about golf administration (the USGA and others) as it's about his own golf and about his architecture. It's also important to understand what he was doing or more pertinently not doing when he wrote it (there is some interesting correspondence from others such as the Wilsons mentioning he had been threatening to write that book for quite some time).

It also helps to consider what the title might have meant to him and the message he wanted to send to those he knew he would read it at the time he wrote it. (1927-28).

Sometimes you need to look closely to see if some things are in quotes and if others aren't. For instance, you will see that famous remark of his; "It makes the very soul of golf shriek." Perhaps many to most think he wrote that before he did NGLA and even as a reason he did NGLA due to the preceding style of architecture at the time we sometimes call Victorian or Geometric which some thought was so awful. It looks to me like he was describing what he saw much later as around when he wrote the book (late 1920s)! That's likely confirmed as he also mentions that some greens have shapes that look like "Marcel Waves." Marcel Waves was a hairstyle that became particular popularly during the "Roaring Twenties." A vastly different look, style and linear application than Victorian or Geometric for sure!   

[Rick Shefchik]

[David Stamm]

Jay, I'm curious why you have never read this until now? I would think from covering golf and having the privilege to visit NGLA last year that this would've compelled you to read it much earlier.

[Mac Plumart]

Jumping back a few posts to Tom Paul's last post...I must say it is things like this that inspire me to continue to gather, not only basic understanding of facts and timelines but, enough of an education to have a real understanding of context and the interaction of all the moving parts and people in the formation of the concepts and ideals related to golf.

Jay asked awhile back about the key takeaways from the book...well, I think one of those is the concept of American Golf.  I think there might be some sort of contentious state or feelings related to American Golf, Scottish Golf, Golf in GB&I, etc.  But I can't help but believe that there are real differences in not only the game and the courses...but in the ideals.  Things that make me think this relative to the book are...the title "Scotland's Gift", a title of one of the chapters "American Golf", and that quote about the very soul of Golf shrieking.  Anyway, American Golf is a key takeaway for me.

Another is a few paragraphs I mentally highlighted on page 169 of the Tarta Press 2003 edition of the book.  The paragraph the reads "The National has now fulfilled its mission...caused the study of golf course architecture..."  I find that whole paragraph important.  And the next paragraph has a sentence that says "...I was really contributing something to American Golf..."

Anyway, per your request Jay...those are somethings I took away from the book.

Enjoy!

[Bill_McBride]

Jumping back a few posts to Tom Paul's last post...I must say it is things like this that inspire me to continue to gather, not only basic understanding of facts and timelines but, enough of an education to have a real understanding of context and the interaction of all the moving parts and people in the formation of the concepts and ideals related to golf.

Jay asked awhile back about the key takeaways from the book...well, I think one of those is the concept of American Golf.  I think there might be some sort of contentious state or feelings related to American Golf, Scottish Golf, Golf in GB&I, etc.  But I can't help but believe that there are real differences in not only the game and the courses...but in the ideals.  Things that make me think this relative to the book are...the title "Scotland's Gift", a title of one of the chapters "American Golf", and that quote about the very soul of Golf shrieking.  Anyway, American Golf is a key takeaway for me.

Another is a few paragraphs I mentally highlighted on page 169 of the Tarta Press 2003 edition of the book.  The paragraph the reads "The National has now fulfilled its mission...caused the study of golf course architecture..."  I find that whole paragraph important.  And the next paragraph has a sentence that says "...I was really contributing something to American Golf..."

Anyway, per your request Jay...those are somethings I took away from the book.

Enjoy!

Mac, do you think the ideals that over time have led to the current state of American golf were all laudable?

I hope you have a trip to the auld sod on your agenda soon.  I promise it will be an eye opener!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mac,
Good call on the importance of "National has now fulfilled its mission...." By the way, it's the 10th paragraph before the end of the "National Golf Links of America" chapter, for anyone not possessing the same editon as you have. Mine is 1985/Ailsa, where it's found on pg.202.

[Mac Plumart]

Bill...

Second question first...yes.  I have a trip lined up to  go to Scotland in May of 2011.  Why so far in advance?  I wanted to line up Muirfield and it is my understanding that it takes some pre-planning.  Anyway, May 3rd teeing off at Muirfield.  I've got Renaissance lined up for the 4th.  Then it is off to St. Andrews...Old Course will be the highlight.  But walking around the town is another thing I am VERY excited about!!!

Also, I want to get to Askernish VERY, VERY badly and am willing to make the trip.  I just hope to have enough time!!

First question...I think some of the American Golf ideals, facets, etc...don't seem ideal at all.  My understanding is that golf in Scotland is a community-related endeavor.  For instance, the entire community of St. Andrews takes pride in The Old Course (and there other courses).  Dornoch, Gullane, etc do similiar things.  America seems to lack that community oriented feel.  It seems more private/elitist.

Anthony Gray made, what I thought was, an excellent point relative to Scottish Golfers and American Golfers.  Relatively speaking Americans have a low Golf IQ.  They don't understand the ins and outs of the game, etiquette, how to keep up pace of play, how to fix  divot, etc.  Scottish people grew up playing the game and it is second nature to them and therefore they have a very high golf IQ....this was his point.  Perhaps that makes having a community-centric golf course more "do-able" as people know how to respect it, take care of it, etc.

Of course, these are only my takes and opinions on things.  I could be WAY off base.  And I will listen to any and all educated comments and corrections.  I certainly don't want to start an American vs. British war on golf.  I am a proud American who has served his country, so I am not putting down America or talking trash.  Simply stating what I THINK I am seeing.

Jay...forgive the thread jack...I just realized what I might be doing.  Sorry!!!  

[Bill_McBride]

Bill...

Second question first...yes.  I have a trip lined up to  go to Scotland in May of 2011.  Why so far in advance?  I wanted to line up Muirfield and it is my understanding that it takes some pre-planning.  Anyway, May 3rd teeing off at Muirfield.  I've got Renaissance lined up for the 4th.  Then it is off to St. Andrews...Old Course will be the highlight.  But walking around the town is another thing I am VERY excited about!!!

Also, I want to get to Askernish VERY, VERY badly and am willing to make the trip.  I just hope to have enough time!!

First question...I think some of the American Golf ideals, facets, etc...don't seem ideal at all.  My understanding is that golf in Scotland is a community-related endeavor.  For instance, the entire community of St. Andrews takes pride in The Old Course (and there other courses).  Dornoch, Gullane, etc do similiar things.  America seems to lack that community oriented feel.  It seems more private/elitist.

Anthony Gray made, what I thought was, an excellent point relative to Scottish Golfers and American Golfers.  Relatively speaking Americans have a low Golf IQ.  They don't understand the ins and outs of the game, etiquette, how to keep up pace of play, how to fix  divot, etc.  Scottish people grew up playing the game and it is second nature to them and therefore they have a very high golf IQ....this was his point.  Perhaps that makes having a community-centric golf course more "do-able" as people know how to respect it, take care of it, etc.

Of course, these are only my takes and opinions on things.  I could be WAY off base.  And I will listen to any and all educated comments and corrections.  I certainly don't want to start an American vs. British war on golf.  I am a proud American who has served his country, so I am not putting down America or talking trash.  Simply stating what I THINK I am seeing.

Jay...forgive the thread jack...I just realized what I might be doing.  Sorry!!!  

Can't disagree with anything you're saying about American golf.  Add in housing developments and riding carts and it's about summed up.   

If you are going to do the day (36 + lunch at Muirfield) and Renaissance, don't miss North Berwick.  It will be the most fun round of your trip.  Guaranteed.

[Kevin Pallier]

I found (with delight) a copy at one of the golfing lodges during my travels through the USA last year.

I loved the Map of NGLA + old B&W photos

Each to their own - but I found his "perfect golf course" analysis interesting reading: re: Essential Characteristics where he analysed a "score" to each of
1. Course
2. Putting greens
3. Bunkers and other hazards
4. Length of hole
5. Quality of turf of "fair green"
6. Width of the "fair green" 45 to 60 yds
7. Nature of teeing grounds and proximity to greens

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mac,
Golf flourished in the UK for several hundred years prior to it's transportation to the U.S. I would hope they'd have the 'ultimate' model.
Having said that, I think there are many, many places over here that would mimic, in our own way, the same values found over there.

It's not all carts and housing developments.  (far from it, actually)

 

[TEPaul]

"My understanding is that golf in Scotland is a community-related endeavor.  For instance, the entire community of St. Andrews takes pride in The Old Course (and there other courses).  Dornoch, Gullane, etc do similiar things.  America seems to lack that community oriented feel.  It seems more private/elitist."

Mac:

Your understanding of that is correct and at least with St Andrews there's one fundamental reason it may be that way and always was. TOC was not owned by any private interest or private club. The Old Course is on community land owned by the town and open to all from the town. I think the Royal and Ancient Golf Club is just one of maybe 3 or 4 or so clubs there that use the course.

Over here there really is little like that or with that kind of history. Most all our land for golf was in some kind of private ownership whether it was leased from it or owned outright by a club. Matter of fact, when this country was first settled by West European settlers it wasn't even owned at all in the way most all of us think of it. It essentially belonged to a thousand or so American Indians tribes all around the country and in almost all cases American Indians did not even have a concept of actual ownership of land. To them it was generally almost part of them or part of their souls. They didn't think it was possessable in an "owneship" way as most of us do today.

And I think that's very appropriate of you to mention Macdonald's chapter in his autobiography entitled "American Golf." Actually it was titled "The beginning of American Golf" and I believe his primary point in that chapter was to point out that America had no traditions of or with golf at that time the way they did in Scotland and particularly at St. Andrews and for hundreds of years BEFORE any permanent golf course or club existed in North America. I think that point is confirmed (in his opinion) in his very first sentence in that chapter-----"The beginning of golf in America is largely apocryphal."

[Bill_McBride]

Mac,
Golf flourished in the UK for several hundred years prior to it's transportation to the U.S. I would hope they'd have the 'ultimate' model.
Having said that, I think there are many, many places over here that would mimic, in our own way, the same values found over there.

It's not all carts and housing developments.  (far from it, actually)

 

Jim, I was just pointing out some of the negatives about our golf culture.

I agree our older courses are not as tied to real estate development, but what percentage do you think has been in the past 40 years?

And what has that done for golf courses and for golf in general?  Wall to wall cart paths, long rides across subdivision streets..........

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bill,
I wasn't singling you out, only using your perfectly good observations as one side of the question.

Without searching for an answer I'd say that real estate based golf course development was in the majority in the past 40 years, and I can't foresee too many privately owned courses without a RE component being built in the future. One reason:  no developer is going to allow a bordering property to take advantage of the increase in value that the golf course brings to its immediate surroundings.

Having grown up in a county (within two hours of the G.Washington Bridge) that had 12 golf courses, most of them 'antiques' and 11 of them 9 holers, I can't even remember the first time I saw a paved cart path, no lie. Golf has mainly been a low-key pursuit around here and most of the stuff that is deemed unhealthy has by-passed us. Actually, I can comfortably drive within a two hour radius of my house and find a slew of fun, low key, reasonably good, fun places to play that won't break my bank. I've found similar situations all up and down the eastern seabord, and I know I'm not alone in that pursuit.

I will say this:  90% of the golf courses featured in the top 3 golf magazines represent a minor portion of what's really going on out there, and what's really going on out there doesn't need to sell itself in the top 3 golf magazines. 

[TEPaul]

"Jay asked awhile back about the key takeaways from the book...well, I think one of those is the concept of American Golf.  I think there might be some sort of contentious state or feelings related to American Golf, Scottish Golf, Golf in GB&I, etc.  But I can't help but believe that there are real differences in not only the game and the courses...but in the ideals.  Things that make me think this relative to the book are...the title "Scotland's Gift", a title of one of the chapters "American Golf", and that quote about the very soul of Golf shrieking.  Anyway, American Golf is a key takeaway for me."


Mac:

One of the most interesting things to me about reading and considering Macdonald's autobiography is the fact that it appears he was talking about his apparent dissatisfaction with the state of American golf architecture (in his chapter titled "Architecture" at the end of the book) not so much before his NGLA but up to twenty years after it. We need to remember when he wrote that book and chapter it was twenty years after he began NGLA. He also mentions in the context of that famous remark---eg "It makes the very sould of golf shriek" that he is talking about modern architecture over here and probably not that prevalent geometric, steeplechase or Victorian style over here before his NGLA.

So, if that's true the question is raised what was it that he objected to about the so-called modern American architecture in the 20 years following the beginning of NGLA? And the next question to ponder is what would he have thought of the quality of the accumulation of American courses we have now?

There may be one interesting irony in all this----and that is in the last couple of decades there has been a distinct turning back with the style of architecture of some of our American architects today to more of the way things once were in the original linksland and original heathland courses with that kind of topography and style (even if manufactured or semi-manufactured today).


Lastly, there is another thing to consider when reading his autobiography and that is at that point (1927-28) it pretty much seems like Macdonald was not exactly a happy camper for a number of reasons. It seems fairly provable that at that point he had pretty completely just dropped out of much participation with anything or anyone even if he would live for another eleven years and there seems to be a number of indicators of that to prove it. That he seems to have felt that way at that point might even have been his own reasoning for the time and the reason to write this book or at least that is what he told one club that he was really prominently associated with when he quit it suddenly in the end of 1926 (and at the time he was even the president of the holding company that owned the club) to go to Bermuda to his cottage for an extended period to write "Scotland's Gift Golf."

I've mentioned this kind of thing on here before and I do recognize it seems to upset some of Macdonald's most ardent supporters on here for some reason. I'm not sure why though as it is pretty provable even though some look at it as some kind of criticism of him or some such. I don't look at it as criticism at all; it's just a facet of the pretty provable chronicle of his actual life at that time.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Lastly, there is another thing to consider when reading his autobiography and that is at that point (1927-28) it pretty much seems like Macdonald was not exactly a happy camper for a number of reasons. It seems fairly provable that at that point he had pretty completely just dropped out of much participation with anything or anyone even if he would live for another eleven years and there seems to be a number of indicators of that to prove it. That he seems to have felt that way at that point might even have been the time and the reason to write this book or at least that is what he told one club that he was really prominently associated with when he quit it suddenly to go to Bermuda to his cottage for an extended period to write "Scotland's Gift Golf."

I've mentioned this kind of thing on here before and I do recognize it seems to upset some of Macdonald's most ardent supporters on here for some reason. I'm not sure why though as it is pretty provable even though some look at it as criticism of him or some such. I don't look at it as criticism at all; it's just a facet of the pretty provable chronicle of his actual life.

What's really interesting is that you've been alluding to something sinister about Macdonald's later life for a couple of years now, yet no one seems to care enough to ask you what that might be. You seem like a smart fellow, why don't you take the hint?

[TEPaul]

"What's really interesting is that you've been alluding to something sinister about Macdonald's later life for a couple of years now, yet no one seems to care enough to ask you what that might be. You seem like a smart fellow, why don't you take the hint?"


Mac:

There it is, just the kind of thing we were speaking about recently. I almost felt like putting a post on here today just predicting the inevitability of it whenever the subject of Macdonald comes up on here but I thought if I did that it might just serve to stultify the spontaneousness of that inevitablility 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mac:
There it is, just the kind of thing we were speaking about recently. I almost felt like putting a post on here today just predicting the inevitability of it whenever the subject of Macdonald comes up on here but I thought if I did that it might just serve to stultify the spontaneousness of that inevitablility 

Actually, this thread was going along quite nicely, and with civility, until you interjected some slimy innuendo about CBM....and if you'll notice, no one is protecting CBM, only just wondering why you want to spread rumors? Frankly TEP, it really appears that most people don't give a damn.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim/Tom,

I don't know....I think we should be curious to discuss Macdonald's last 10-15 years and why he apparently dropped out of architecture, and in most cases, dropped out of the game en toto.

I have no bone to pick with Macdonald...anything but.   I've played a small handful of his courses and LOVED THEM ALL.   They are brilliant, and certainly were a watershed event in golf in America.

Yet, we also know that after designing a number of great courses, Macdonald basically seems to have left the room.   His work mostly took place before 1925...hell, most of it was before the start of America's entry to WWI, yet Mac lived another two decades, mostly lying fallow.

So, I'm not looking to tear down any heroes here...lord knows we have enough of that in our culture, but I am curious to learn about some of the forces that were pulling at Macdonald that made him largely a non-participant in most of the Golden Age of design, and perhaps more imporantly, what he spent his days doing instead.

Anyone who can shed some light on those areas would be helpful to my historic understanding, and I suspect would be helpful to others, as well.

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