Golfweek 2010 lists

[Carl Nichols]

Here is the link to the Unofficial GCA.com rankings - compare!

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37531.0/

Ciao

I think it's actually this link:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42368.0/

[Jim_Coleman]

Congratulations to Rolling Green, which moved up 22 spots - I think the biggest jump.  Well deserved!

[Ronald Montesano]

My Dime

1.  country club of buffalo, back in top 100 classic at #90...no idea what renovations Brad Klein is talking about, other than mother nature ripping out about 500 trees a few years back during a pissed-off fortnight;

2.  jud, have you played Whistling Straights?  It IS that big a deal...it's a freaking amazing course.  I can go over shot values all day long.  The beauty of it is, it's not just one type of course.  The inland holes (5, 9, 10 and 18) are tremendously challenging and demand strategic forethought.  The other 14 holes, bordering the lake in one form or fashion, defy imagination and gravity.  If you have played it and still feel this way, that's too bad for you.

3.  agree on Fox Chapel...played it once and would love to play it again and again.

4.  on the same note, why the drop for Old Town in Winston-Salem?

5.  I think that they finally got the top five classic correct.  I'd still like to see Augusta National outside the top ten and suspect that San Francisco GC would be the course to present the eviction notice.

[David Stamm]

Great to see Valley Club move up. I believe it was in 80's(?) last time.



Once again, I don't know how Spyglass gets such high rankings.

[Anthony Gray]

  Mac,

  What a thread. Great effort and sacrifice of time.....And no spelling mistakes I think.

  Anthony

[Sean Leary]

My Dime


5.  I think that they finally got the top five classic correct.  I'd still like to see Augusta National outside the top ten and suspect that San Francisco GC would be the course to present the eviction notice.

What did you like about SFGC that makes you think its superior to ANGC?

[Mac Plumart]

Thanks Anthony.  I struggled with the wording of my first post for a few hours, but finally just decided to let'er rip!!

On a serious note, I am excited to see Sea Island (Seaside) make such a big move.  And I am curious as to who has played Olde Stone in Kentucky.  I hear it is quite good, but would love to hear people's thoughts on it.

[Ronald Montesano]

Sean of Leary,

I have set foot on neither property.  Augusta National to me is the equivalent of an attractive human (I won't be chauvinistic here) who simply refuses to age properly.  Relying on plastic surgery after plastic surgery, he/she/it builds layer after layer of scar tissue amid the snickers of those younger than it, until it eventually loses relevance.  ANGC epitomizes the antithesis of classic, preferring to be altered by moderner after moderner until its original genetic code is no longer recognizable.  The greatest of all ironies?  The greenside bunker of Doctor Al on hole ten...no longer a greenside bunker, instead an irrelevant fairway trap, reduced to a decorative feature.

San Francisco seems to be recognized as Tilly's west coast gem (does he have other left coast courses?) and appears to be everything that Augusta is not; a course that is comfortable in its own, unaltered skin.  I looked at the other courses 'twixt 11 and 15 and decided that Fishers Island was one more East Coast course in the top ten, one more too many.  Prairie Dunes dropped five spots and out of the top ten...why?  Chicago GC, Seminole and #2 are simply missing that "something" that elevates them to true greatness.  If I knew enough about the courses, I could tell you what it is.  I suspect that experts would agree with me and can substantiate my allusions.

[Jud_T]

My Dime



2.  jud, have you played Whistling Straights?  It IS that big a deal...it's a freaking amazing course.  I can go over shot values all day long.  The beauty of it is, it's not just one type of course.  The inland holes (5, 9, 10 and 18) are tremendously challenging and demand strategic forethought.  The other 14 holes, bordering the lake in one form or fashion, defy imagination and gravity.  If you have played it and still feel this way, that's too bad for you.

Ronald,

I have certainly played WS on more than one occasion.  I stand by my statement that it's overrated here.  And you must be joking about 5 & 18, the 2 worst holes on the course IMHO.....

[Steve Lapper]

Sebonack higher than Friar's Head....??

Come on....

Brian.....

You know why

Policy, policy, policy....though I'd not disagree with it

Hope you are well!

[Ronald Montesano]

Jud,

You are ahead of me in the frequency category and I cede to you that judgment distinction.  Why is it that you don't like 5 and 18?  Are they bad holes in general or are they bad holes because they fail to fit some other notion?  They are not traditional holes, for sure.  I feel the same way about 17 and 18 on Irish, as they fail to fit the rest of the course...16 irish-style holes and then...boom...Golden Tee Come To Life!!!

Personally, I can forgive 2 holes if the other 16 are awesome, and that's the way I feel about Straits.  I might agree to drop it to #5 modern and imagine that it will drop when Old MacDonald comes to town...

Wait a second, those are Modern Courses in general, not just public access ones...screw that...it drops out of the top ten...I would put Pete Dye Golf Club and Ocean Course at Kiawah Island Trace Dunes Valley (is that the new name...wait, that's the Blue Monster of which I think...) ahead of it, not to mention The Golf Club.  It's not in his top three modern courses.

[Jud_T]

Now you're talking....I'm not saying it's a bad course, it isn't.  But it's completely manufactured and IMHO is overrated because of the scenic location and the fact that it's in the major rota, frankly I'm not sure it belongs in the top 20 if you look at some of the courses it's ahead of.  As for 5 and 18, as I recall neither allows for much optionality of play except for the big hitter.  5 is the S-shaped par 5 with water on both sides, it's sort of a boring layup hole unless you've been drinking heavily and want to give it a go and on 18 if you mishit your tee shot or don't get it far enough down, again there's no real strategy.  Yes, there are heroic options on both holes but again only for the big hitter, and both holes look less natural than the rest of the course IMHO....

[Tim Nugent]

....and IMHO is overrated because of the scenic location and the fact that it's in the major rota, frankly I'm not sure it belongs in the top 20 if you look at some of the courses it's ahead of.  As for 5 and 18, as I recall neither allows for much optionality of play except for the big hitter.  5 is the S-shaped par 5 with water on both sides, it's sort of a boring layup hole unless you've been drinking heavily and want to give it a go and on 18 if you mishit your tee shot or don't get it far enough down, again there's no real strategy.  Yes, there are heroic options on both holes but again only for the big hitter, and both holes look less natural than the rest of the course IMHO....

Jud, you are spot on with that observation.  When you subtract those aspects and judge courses on the things that directly affect the player, how many changes do you think there would be.  This is perhaps my biggest problem with rankings - they are totally subjective and any attempt to numerically quanitify a golf course for comparision purposes is ludicous.  What I find even more ludicous is that people actually take the time to argue about it.  It's like the NCAA BB preseason polls.  But unlike that, the courses don't play head-to-head all year to actually determine which is best.

But, because it sells magizines, and because, like a traffic accident, people can't look away, we are stuck with them.

BTW, good call with 5 & 18.  I don't even know what 5 is doing on that course.  1st time I played 18 was in pea soup fog and couldn't see 20'.  Without the Pete Dye visual BS, it was much easier.  No intimidation factor. But the big forced carry on the 2nd shot definately screws the short knocker.  Personally, I hate the volcano on 17.

[PCCraig]

Sean of Leary,

I have set foot on neither property.  Augusta National to me is the equivalent of an attractive human (I won't be chauvinistic here) who simply refuses to age properly.  Relying on plastic surgery after plastic surgery, he/she/it builds layer after layer of scar tissue amid the snickers of those younger than it, until it eventually loses relevance.  ANGC epitomizes the antithesis of classic, preferring to be altered by moderner after moderner until its original genetic code is no longer recognizable.  The greatest of all ironies?  The greenside bunker of Doctor Al on hole ten...no longer a greenside bunker, instead an irrelevant fairway trap, reduced to a decorative feature.

San Francisco seems to be recognized as Tilly's west coast gem (does he have other left coast courses?) and appears to be everything that Augusta is not; a course that is comfortable in its own, unaltered skin.  I looked at the other courses 'twixt 11 and 15 and decided that Fishers Island was one more East Coast course in the top ten, one more too many.  Prairie Dunes dropped five spots and out of the top ten...why?  Chicago GC, Seminole and #2 are simply missing that "something" that elevates them to true greatness.  If I knew enough about the courses, I could tell you what it is.  I suspect that experts would agree with me and can substantiate my allusions.

Ron,

No offense, but I'm not sure how you can say certain courses should be moved around the lists when you have never even seen them. Just because SFGC is Tilly's only "west coast gem" and therefore more worthy than ANGC is silly. To say that Chicago Golf Club is "missing something," then turn around and say you know nothing of it is also bizzare.

[Andy Troeger]

In addition to Rock Creek, there are quite a few other newer courses that have done well in the various Best New awards that haven't made an appearance yet. The Alotian Club is the second biggest omission IMO, but I'm curious if places like Mountaintop and Cornerstone just didn't receive enough visits or if they didn't make the cut.

I also don't understand why Wolf Run has fallen so dramatically the last two years--GW had it about right when it was in the #15-20 range.

Whistling Straits is very good, but I have three other Dye designs ahead of it: The Golf Club, Blackwolf Run, and TPC Sawgrass.

[PCCraig]

Whistling Straits is very good, but I have three other Dye designs ahead of it: The Golf Club, Blackwolf Run, and TPC Sawgrass.

Do you mean the River Course at Blackwolf Run? Or the original routing, the "championship course?" (which will actually be in play all year long up there!     )

[Jim Franklin]

8.28 would have placed it 5th - still too low in my book.... 

I'm just guessing that there's a lower threshold number of eyeballs that need to have seen a course for consideration for "Best New" than there is for consideration for "Best Modern" and that RCCC met the lower threshold last year but not the higher threshold.

I agree. Still too low. It needs to move 5 places higher to be accurate.

[Jim Franklin]

And The Alotian is another glaring omission.

[Andy Troeger]

Pat,
I meant the River Course, but the "championship course" would be just as good and I know some guys here have argued that it was better than the current version. I'm a big fan of the river holes so I'll leave it as a draw. Never having seen the original #10 makes them difficult to compare fairly.

[Andy Troeger]

And The Alotian is another glaring omission.

And I expected you to mention the glaring omission of Lakota Canyon! 

[Ronald Montesano]

Pat,
To answer, I gave an opinion, to which I am entitled. I am not acting as a consultant, so no one will be unduly affected by my opinion.  As you notice, no one is clamoring for me in George Pazin's "Getting to know" series. Thus, I believe that criticism of an overly-manufactured course in Whistling Straits case is not cause for lowering of status.  If 5 and 18 are seen as bad holes, so be it.  I believe that five could be improved by moving the green site from where it is and turning the hole into a par four.  That done, 18 could become a closing and heroic par five, making eagle a real possibility.  True that par would be unbalanced; so is life.

Regarding courses I have not seen, good of you to call me out on that one.  I hope that you will not spend much time researching others on this site who have opined without experiencing a course, as your family and coworkers will miss you!

San Francisco GC is clearly in ANGC's league, as is Chicago Golf Club.  In my realm, a course that is constantly reworked, made over and revealed, is missing something.  I would say, having seen neither property, that San Francisco GC's terrain would give it more opportunity to reveal memorable and valuable holes.  If others believe this to be the case, let them support me.  If others consider other courses (Chicago, Fishers, et al) to be worthier, then state their case.  If others still believe ANGC to be properly placed, defend the placement...I feel a new thread coming.

[Sean Leary]

Sean of Leary,

I have set foot on neither property.  Augusta National to me is the equivalent of an attractive human (I won't be chauvinistic here) who simply refuses to age properly.  Relying on plastic surgery after plastic surgery, he/she/it builds layer after layer of scar tissue amid the snickers of those younger than it, until it eventually loses relevance.  ANGC epitomizes the antithesis of classic, preferring to be altered by moderner after moderner until its original genetic code is no longer recognizable.  The greatest of all ironies?  The greenside bunker of Doctor Al on hole ten...no longer a greenside bunker, instead an irrelevant fairway trap, reduced to a decorative feature.

San Francisco seems to be recognized as Tilly's west coast gem (does he have other left coast courses?) and appears to be everything that Augusta is not; a course that is comfortable in its own, unaltered skin.  I looked at the other courses 'twixt 11 and 15 and decided that Fishers Island was one more East Coast course in the top ten, one more too many.  Prairie Dunes dropped five spots and out of the top ten...why?  Chicago GC, Seminole and #2 are simply missing that "something" that elevates them to true greatness.  If I knew enough about the courses, I could tell you what it is.  I suspect that experts would agree with me and can substantiate my allusions.

Ron,

No offense, but I'm not sure how you can say certain courses should be moved around the lists when you have never even seen them. Just because SFGC is Tilly's only "west coast gem" and therefore more worthy than ANGC is silly. To say that Chicago Golf Club is "missing something," then turn around and say you know nothing of it is also bizzare.

Determining exact pecking order on courses you have not played, especially ANGC, seems like band wagon jumping. It has not been changed to cater to any ranking lists, thats for sure.

As for your second paragraph, do you know how these lists are compliled? How the points work? Courses don't drop because raters specifically rank other courses ahead of it. And the point differential is so minimal between them that a small number of raters can affect the rankings in given year, just by giving courses slightly lower or higher scores than those before them?  

As for SFGC, you do know that they did a major renovation a few years back, right? Changed 3 holes that had been that way for 50 years? Your argument makes zero sense.

As for Prairie Dunes, why do you think it dropped? I would be interested to hear, because it my view, its better than it was two years ago. And I would consider myself somewhat of an expert on the matter.

[Ronald Montesano]

Sean,

Thank you for the update on San Francisco...I did not know that three holes had been changed and I am FURIOUS that no one told me.  What ever happened to communication?  What was done to these holes?  What was the motivation?  Do you think that they are better holes than before?  You will admit, I take it, that a change of three holes pales in comparison with the plastic surgery that Hollywood National (sorry, Augusta) undergoes every two years.

I wondered about Prairie Dunes, too.  I can't imagine a reason for its descent.  I do know how the ratings work and I imagine that there is no way to come up with a viable rating structure.  I think that the ratings should be extended to the top two hundred and grouped in tens.  I believe that saying "these are the top ten courses in the country" is more legit than saying "these decimals separate PV from CP."

[PCCraig]

Pat,
To answer, I gave an opinion, to which I am entitled. I am not acting as a consultant, so no one will be unduly affected by my opinion.  As you notice, no one is clamoring for me in George Pazin's "Getting to know" series. Thus, I believe that criticism of an overly-manufactured course in Whistling Straits case is not cause for lowering of status.  If 5 and 18 are seen as bad holes, so be it.  I believe that five could be improved by moving the green site from where it is and turning the hole into a par four.  That done, 18 could become a closing and heroic par five, making eagle a real possibility.  True that par would be unbalanced; so is life.

Regarding courses I have not seen, good of you to call me out on that one.  I hope that you will not spend much time researching others on this site who have opined without experiencing a course, as your family and coworkers will miss you!

San Francisco GC is clearly in ANGC's league, as is Chicago Golf Club.  In my realm, a course that is constantly reworked, made over and revealed, is missing something.  I would say, having seen neither property, that San Francisco GC's terrain would give it more opportunity to reveal memorable and valuable holes.  If others believe this to be the case, let them support me.  If others consider other courses (Chicago, Fishers, et al) to be worthier, then state their case.  If others still believe ANGC to be properly placed, defend the placement...I feel a new thread coming.

Giving opinions on courses you clearly have little knowledge about is pretty useless. You can give us all your opinion, but at least base it on something, not just what you think might be the case.

[Jud_T]

Are the points awarded to #'s 4 & 5 (classic) correct?

I wish GW would also do a composite ranking, that includes both modern and classic on one list. 

ask and you shall receive! Here's a composite of the two lists.  I apologize for any typos or format issues in advance.  Also ties were given to the classic courses:

1   Pine Valley Golf Club                   9.53
2   Cypress Point Club                    9.49
3   Sand Hills Golf Club                   9.34
4   Pacific Dunes                9.23
5   Shinnecock                      9.22
6   NGLA                               9.11
7   Merion                               9.09
8   Oakmont                               9.01
9   Crystal Downs               8.88
10   Pebble Beach               8.86
11   Augusta National               8.75
12   Fishers Island               8.71
13   Whistling Straits (Straits)             8.68
14   San Francisco Golf               8.63
15   Chicago Golf               8.55
16   Prairie Dunes               8.54
17   Seminole                               8.47
18   Pinehurst (No. 2)               8.41
19   Winged Foot (West)               8.3
20   Bandon Dunes                        8.29
21   Ballyneal                          8.27
22   Sebonack Golf Club                   8.24
23   The Golf Club                 8.23
24   Pete Dye Golf Club                     8.19
25   Friar’s Head                   8.15
26   Shadow Creek Golf Club                       8.12
27   Oakland Hills (South)               8.1
28   Garden City                               8.1
29   Bethpage (Black)               8.07
30   Muirfield Village Golf Club                   8.06
31   Old Sandwich Golf Club                         8.06
32   Kinloch Golf Club                        8.05
33   The Country Club (Composite)            8.02
34   LACC (North)               8.01
35   Olympic Club (Lake)               8
36   Riviera                               7.96
37   Camargo Club                   7.94
38   Southern Hills               7.91
39   Spyglass Hill Golf Club                           7.87
40   Honors Course                         7.86
41   TPC Sawgrass (Players Stadium)                     7.85
42   Ocean Course at Kiawah Island                       7.81
43   Shoreacres                               7.79
44   Wannamoisett               7.79
45   Wade Hampton Club                7.77
46   Somerset Hills               7.75
47   Plainfield                               7.68
48   Pasatiempo                               7.67
49   Maidstone Club                    7.66
50   Kingsley Club                           7.65
51   Myopia Hunt Club               7.62
52   Chambers Bay Golf Club                        7.6
53   Calusa Pines Golf Club                          7.59
54   Colorado Golf Club                   7.58
55   Winged Foot (East)               7.55
56   Oak Hill (East)                7.55
57   Peachtree                               7.53
58   Baltusrol (Lower)               7.51
59   Inverness Club                    7.51
60   Quaker Ridge               7.5
61   Yeamans Hall Club               7.48
62   Bayonne Golf Club                    7.47
63   Dunes Club                  7.47
64   Baltimore CC (East)               7.46
65   Dallas National Golf Club                     7.46
66   Valley Club of Montecito            7.45
67   Wild Horse Golf Club                  7.45
68   Mayacama Golf Club                 7.44
69   Bandon Trails                           7.43
70   Castle Pines Golf Club                            7.43
71   Olympia Fields (North)               7.41
72   Piping Rock                               7.41
73   World Woods GC (Pine Barrens)                       7.41
74   Milwaukee CC               7.4
75    Harbour Town Golf Links                       7.4
76   Desert Forest Golf Club                           7.4
77   Monterey Peninsula CC (Shore)                       7.4
78   Double Eagle Golf Club                         7.39
79   Newport CC               7.38
80   Galloway National Golf Club                 7.38
81   Boston Golf Club                        7.38
82   Salem CC                               7.37
83   Yale                               7.36
84   Arcadia Bluffs                          7.36
85   *Gozzer Ranch                        7.35
86   Scioto                               7.34
87    Blackwolf Run (River)                7.34
88   Pronghorn (Fazio)                     7.34
89   Homestead (Cascades)               7.32
90   Colonial CC                               7.32
91   Interlachen CC               7.3
92   Fallen Oak Golf Club                7.3
93   Paa-Ko Ridge Golf Club                        7.29
94   Holston Hills CC               7.28
95   Black Diamond Ranch (Quarry)            7.28
96   East Lake                               7.27
97   California Golf Club                 7.25
98   The Club at Cuscowilla                      7.24
99   *Whispering Pines Golf Club              7.23
100   Sutton Bay Club                      7.22