Experience WGT.com- All 18 on TOC and OAKMONT

[Alex Miller]

I believe the point being made is that WGT provides a fairly accurate depiction of the front nine at TOC, including layout, contours, angles, etc. (as well as perhaps the best graphical depiction of the course found short of being there).  How any fan of GCA could not appreciate this tool is beyond me.

Yes,

This was my first thought. In fact I think most would agree that the only thing that could enhance one of the tour's given on this site would be to make them interactive. That is basically what they have done with TOC and I'm glad others who have never made it there can experience it.

[Garland Bayley]

There is nothing like a great computer golf game to learn more about the contours and strategies of that course short of actually playing there. Even though I have played Bandon in real life, it really helps to spend a few weeks playing the course on computer to get reacquainted before going down there in person. I also found playing virtual Bethpage helped a great deal before my actual round there.

If I am ever lucky enough to get to Scotland to play TOC in person, you can bet that I would spend a considerable amount of time playing the course virtually to get to know the course better.

P.S. We should just ignore trolls like Melvyn, who believe humankind peaked somewhere around 1880's and everything that came since is crap. Talk about a real life Ian MacCallister... jeesh.

Richard,

You belittle yourself when you resort to name calling.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Richard

We should just ignore trolls like Melvyn, who believe humankind peaked somewhere around 1880's and everything that came since is crap. Talk about a real life Ian MacCallister... jeesh.

That your opinion. My opinion is that it is so sad to see grown men, apparently golfers happy to play a computer game and think its an acceptable substitute for the real thing. But then boys will be boys as I see by your comment.

Melvyn

PS If you think that is experiencing TOC then I really feel sorry for you.

[Richard Choi]

Richard,

You belittle yourself when you resort to name calling.

Garland, here is the definition of an Internet Troll:

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

I would say this describes Melvyn's behavior pretty well.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Richard

I take it freedom of speech is only for those who are more equal that others. The opinions of others do not matter, seems you have come rather late to an open society that values freedom of speech. But then you have a right to your opinion.

Melvyn

[Garland Bayley]

Richard,

Since my dictionary defines anal as "designating or of such traits in the adult as orderliness, stinginess, obstinacy, etc." (emphasis added). And I find your response to be obstinate, do you want me to start calling you anal?

[Sven Nilsen]

Melvyn:

No one here has said it is an "acceptable" substitute for being there.  Those are your words.

For those of us who don't have the privilege of access or proximity to the TOC, WGT provides a means of experiencing the course, albeit a limited means.  Even so, I'll take what I can get when it comes to learning more about St. Andrews.

In the future, please chose your words with a little more care and have a modicum of respect for your fellow posters.  This is, afterall, a community, and as such one should take care to try to fully understand the points being made by others before firing off a post.

Sven

[Scott Warren]

It certainly gives a better feeling of the course than any of the Tiger Woods games, like the huge swale in the front of the 2nd green.

They do some pretty good work at wgt.com

[Richard Choi]

Garland, if you want to call me anal, it is certainly your perogative, and you certainly wouldn't be the first

But my troll comment stands. Melvyn regularly injects his diatribes against Tiger and modern technology on practically every post whether or not the thread has any relations to Tiger or technology. That is by definition, a troll.

I just find it very ironic that a man who cries against Tiger's behavior on course is behaving just like Tiger does on this forum. To me, hijacking a thread with non-related topic is like playing into the group ahead of you and constant ranting is like Tiger throwing clubs and cursing after hitting a poor shot. It is sad that a man who is so quick to judge others is so blind to his own behavior.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Richard

All I am going to say to you is on this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2sMuVPMkkk

Melvyn

[John Mayhugh]

I wasn't familiar with WGT.  Not huge on gaming, but this seems like a really interesting way to view a golf course.  Thanks for sharing it.

To address Melvyn's latent Luddism:
I doubt that any of us would prefer WGT to real golf.
Many of us are interested in learning more about courses that we have never seen.
Sometimes we read books to do this.
Sometimes we look at photos.
Sometimes we watch golf tournaments that are broadcast on television to do this.
Sometimes we visit internet sites like GCA to do this.
WGT does, for many of us, provide another opportunity to view and learn more about a course.

Of course it is not a substitute for playing the course.  No one even suggested that it would be.  But I do know plenty of people (myself included) who learned quite a bit about specific golf courses by playing games.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if GolfClubAtlas in 2030 uses technology like the WGT game.

[Ken Moum]

I wasn't familiar with WGT.  Not huge on gaming, but this seems like a really interesting way to view a golf course.  Thanks for sharing it.

To address Melvyn's latent Luddism:
I doubt that any of us would prefer WGT to real golf.
Many of us are interested in learning more about courses that we have never seen.
Sometimes we read books to do this.
Sometimes we look at photos.
Sometimes we watch golf tournaments that are broadcast on television to do this.
Sometimes we visit internet sites like GCA to do this.
WGT does, for many of us, provide another opportunity to view and learn more about a course.

Of course it is not a substitute for playing the course.  No one even suggested that it would be.  But I do know plenty of people (myself included) who learned quite a bit about specific golf courses by playing games.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if GolfClubAtlas in 2030 uses technology like the WGT game.

Nicely done.  I agree on all points.

FWIW, and back on topic, good as it is I still don't think the WGT shows just how much undulation there is at The Old.

It's far, far better than television and most photos, but the place is still much more dramatic in person than it is on the screen.

I will say that playing a few holes on WGT gave me a severe itch to go back. 

It took me almost two years to get over the lingering depression about American-style golf I got from two solid weeks of Scottish golf, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that seeing The Old in such fine detail brought it back.

Damn! I miss Scotland and the Scots.

K

[Matt Day]

Thanks for the heads up, hadn't been on the WGT since Bali Hai, the additional courses are great.

[Adam Lawrence]

My one problem with the WGT rendition of the Old course is that I haven't really been able to play the kind of shots I would want to use in real life. I haven't found a way in the game to replicate the seven iron chip from a hundred yards or so that you'd use regularly on a links (would be pleased to hear if someone else has!). It is a very aerially-oriented game.

Adam

[Melvyn Morrow]

I understand why many may think WGT.com is a good idea, but then I can also remember when others thought the cart would not have much of an impact on golf or a golf course. The same was said with pacing out yardage or knowing the distance from the Hole.

This has lead to courses where Walking is frowned upon if not banned outright and golfers so obsessed with distance that they do not care if they hold up others by measuring and re-measuring before finally taking the shot.

Carts have allowed golf to be played in inhospitable places, not governed by the walking golfer but by the carts ability to traverse the terrain going against the fundamental basics of traditional golf. But then many will say, so what, while totally dismissing that walking is an essential part of the game as is the humble ball.

Others love their distance toys not realising that it is eroded the golfer’s natural ability to judge distance unaided. No longer relying on Gods gift of sight and the ability to think. Although this method only really works well if one walks the course observing the GCA.

Carts and yardage aids when introduced seemed no threat to the golfer or the game, yet it has left us with generations of unfit golfers whose game suddenly is affected if distance aids are removed, yet over a few game start to improve as their eyes start to take control again. I would view both the unfit golfers and their poor game down to reliance upon outside aids which clearly enhanced their performance. Take away the cart and some may not be able to play a full round.

Now we are looking at computer games which of course only has a positive take of allowing the golfer to see that which he might not visit or otherwise see. Again it is seen as a useful aid it its early format and who knows in 30 years time it may make not just walking but the cart obsolete, minimising the need to think and ultimately kill off the real golf course. After all, the modern golfer of the mid 2050’s will not want to break a sweat while in his home. The modern designers will be IT designers.

Well I suppose it has some advantages by keeping cost of a round down. as there will be no need for course designer or construction team, not to mention maintenance staff. Your club will be what I expect this site will be forced into becoming, an on-line golf club with a large number of courses ready to download.

If this nightmare scenario is not to happen, then some of you need to wake up to the dangers of doing nothing other than to criticise those who have concerns and voice them on a GCA site. Yet it again comes down to how committed you are to the game you say you love, only you can answer that question.

You may not appreciate my approach or the way I say things but at least I am raising the issues for debate on a site that is meant to be dedicated to Golf Course Architecture but then many here have already sold their soul for the convenience of the humble cart and distance toys. But you have been warned, ask yourself what is WGT.com all about, is it golf or their own survival. Is this another nail in the coffin of golf for a cheap thrill.

There is a big difference in caring for the game and just playing it. That is what I thought GCA.com was about, caring and promoting golf not the poor childish and lazy sideshows that many clearly seem to enjoy if not embrace. 

Melvyn

[Adam Lawrence]

It's just a computer game.

[Tim Bert]

I think most of us are treating this as something like a cool topography map with TOC overlaid. Topography maps really destroyed the game too, I suppose. 

I for one have sworn off all real round of golf in the future because I enjoyed 1 nine hole journey around a computer rendition of one of the great courses that I want to see. 

[Mark Woodger]

to suggest that computer games like this are the thin edge of the wedge and the beginning of the end for people to play real golf is surely a bit melodramatic? I would find it very hard to believe that somebody who enjoys real golf would ever rather play a computer game that a round of golf. Maybe people even find the website and play the game on the computer and it leads them to taking the real game up. With or without cart and distance aid use of course. A bit like when Wimbledon comes around the number of people playing Tennis goes up.

"Your club will be what I expect this site will be forced into becoming, an on-line golf club with a large number of courses ready to download." - you can already play with "friends" on WGT.

"not realising that it is eroded the golfer’s natural ability to judge distance unaided. " - this with regards to distance aids I do agree with for my golf game and have vowed not to use GPS devices and try to feel the shots more this year.

[John Mayhugh]

Now we are looking at computer games which of course only has a positive take of allowing the golfer to see that which he might not visit or otherwise see. Again it is seen as a useful aid it its early format and who knows in 30 years time it may make not just walking but the cart obsolete, minimising the need to think and ultimately kill off the real golf course. After all, the modern golfer of the mid 2050’s will not want to break a sweat while in his home. The modern designers will be IT designers.

On a matter upon which I feel so deeply, and which I consider so far-reaching, I am quite willing to be reckoned an alarmist, admittedly swayed in part by personal interest, as well as by the impending harm to American musical art. I foresee a marked deterioration in American music and musical taste, an interruption in the musical development of the country, and a host of other injuries to music in its artistic manifestations, by virtue -- or rather by vice -- of the multiplication of the various music-reproducing machines.

John Philip Sousa
"The Menace of Mechanical Music"
1906

[Richard Choi]

Saying computer golf simulation is going to replace the real thing is like saying porn will replace real sex.

No matter how good the former is, it is nothing like the real thing and it is silly to worry about it until we have something equivalent to Star Trek Holodecks. But we will all be dead by then.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Of course Richard the carts have not persuaded millions to ride instead of walking and distance aids have not stopped their use in place of Gods own gifts.

As there is no chance why are you worried, could it be that pre WWII everyone walked, now that number has be drastically reduced. Don’t forget the advance in computer over the last 30 years, remembering there were no mobile phones 30 years ago, now look what we can do with them.

Only time will prove me right or wrong, but carts and distance aids has changed the way the game is played and courses designed (to incorporate the cart).

Melvyn 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mark

“Melodramatic?” Perhaps but is that not what happened with the humble cart.

 I mention to Tim that I was reminded of my great uncle telling my father in the 1960’s not to worry about the golf cart because no golfer would really prefer to ride when he can walk the course. As I mentioned he forgot the nature of humans.

Melvyn

[Garland Bayley]

to suggest that computer games like this are the thin edge of the wedge and the beginning of the end for people to play real golf is surely a bit melodramatic? ...

Melodramatic?
Will golf simulators improve so much that many people will stop going to the course? Will anyone visit TOC if they can go down to the local bar and play on a highly realistic virtual reality golf simulator that makes them feel very much like they had done the real thing? Golf Digest had an article about an annual winter trip they take south of NYC to the nearest golf course that is open. This year they went to a bar with a simulator to save time.

Will there eventually be only a few country boy nature lovers that actually go out in the wind and the rain and play?

My son seldom wants to go out an play golf with me. However, he is highly skilled at golf computer games.

I think people who call Melvyn melodramatic and a troll perhaps lack a good sense of imagination.

[Tim Bert]

Let me try a different analogy. When the automatic dishwasher was invented many people stopped hand washing their dishes because it freed up more time or because they didn't like hand washing dishes or for some other reason.

Tomorrow if someone released the coolest dishwashing simulator for the computer, no matter how realistic that simulator was and no matter how much fun it was to play it on the computer, I would still have to wash my dishes, either by hand or using a dishwasher. Why?  Because my dishes would still get dirty if I used them since the simulator would not replace reality.

The comparison of the golf cart to the computer game doesn't work here because whether or not you personally acknowledge That one can actually play golf with a cart it is indeed possible.  The cart changed HOW people played the game (for better or worse has been debated ad nauseum) but they still played the game.

It is not, however, possible to actually play golf on a computer. It is only possible to play a computer game.  So my dishes will still be dirty and need cleaning when I finish playing the online TOC at which point I will decide to go handwash them because the computer can't replicate the fun and exercise I get from playing a round of golf.  I can, however, get a sense for what the view from the tee boxes look like and wherethe bunkers are located and what types of undulations exist, which is what interests me until I can see the course in person.   

[Sven Nilsen]

We get it Melvyn, you don't ride and you judge your distance by feel.

Your slippery slope argument is ridiculous.  No one that enjoys playing golf is going to give up playing the game on terra firma for a computer simulation.  Your argument is based on the assumption that most golfers don't hold dear aspects of golf which you clearly do, including being outdoors, enjoying good camaraderie, playing in varying conditions and experiencing the rub of the land.  I believe this assumption is wrong. 

Then again, I speak for a generation that grew up playing outdoors.  The kids today may have already been warped beyond rescue.