[John Mayhugh]

My follow up question is what do you feel the greens at CP lack, or in other words what might have made them more memorable? Do they need more movement, different surrounds, or what? Obviously you remember them being quite penal otherwise you wouldn't say they might be too tough.

Also do you think that Calusa fails to fit this description:

One of the very best courses in its region and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.

My major memory of the greens at CP is relief that I finally made it onto them.       It's hard for me to really say why I did not find the greens especially memorable, but I just did not.  It seems that most of the slope changes were on the periphery and not much internal contour overall.  You may be able to dispute that perception, but it's what I have in my mind after a couple of trips down there.

As far as the Doak 8 definition goes, it's close.  One of the best courses in its region?  Quite likely, depending on how you define region (e.g. region could be US, Southeast, Florida, or south Florida).  Worth a special trip to see?  Tougher question there.  For me, sure.  For someone visiting from the UK and wanting to see the most architecturally significant courses, probably not. 

If you wanted to call CP an 8, I could see where you were coming from, even if I didn't totally agree. 

[Patrick Hodgdon]

My follow up question is what do you feel the greens at CP lack, or in other words what might have made them more memorable? Do they need more movement, different surrounds, or what? Obviously you remember them being quite penal otherwise you wouldn't say they might be too tough.

Also do you think that Calusa fails to fit this description:

One of the very best courses in its region and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.

My major memory of the greens at CP is relief that I finally made it onto them.       It's hard for me to really say why I did not find the greens especially memorable, but I just did not.  It seems that most of the slope changes were on the periphery and not much internal contour overall.  You may be able to dispute that perception, but it's what I have in my mind after a couple of trips down there.

As far as the Doak 8 definition goes, it's close.  One of the best courses in its region?  Quite likely, depending on how you define region (e.g. region could be US, Southeast, Florida, or south Florida).  Worth a special trip to see?  Tougher question there.  For me, sure.  For someone visiting from the UK and wanting to see the most architecturally significant courses, probably not. 

If you wanted to call CP an 8, I could see where you were coming from, even if I didn't totally agree. 

Thanks John appreciate the opinon and the replies.

One of the questions I've been thinking about is if Calusa is just too tough? For instance you said you were just thrilled to get on the greens and noticed more the steep drop offs on the periphery than some of the internal contours, so I wonder if it's toughness takes away, or maybe better said "distracts," the golfer from the rest of the course's architectural merits?

[Matt Harrison]

Lots of good discussion on this, I do have a couple quick thoughts, as well as some answers to questions Patrick directed to me.  Thought- one of the key reasons Seminole is so highly regarded is the use of the natural features of the site.  It is not just because it seems more natural as a whole, or was just blessed with better land than many courses.  Ross just used the features so well.  Could we compare it to Dornoch?  I am sure someone has somewhere, but the use of a ridge of dunes seems like an apt comparison.  So, for many who love golf course architecture, it is very highly regarded.

The other reality about both courses is that the environment of the club and clubhouse do impact many people.  They both just feel cool and exclusive but still laid-back.  Depending on your experience during your visit, who you were with, etc, it does impact your perspective on the course a bit.

Patrick

1.  Calusa does not feel overly manufactured to many first-time visitors.  However, if you pay close attention, it is fairly obvious.  Quick example- the walk from 8 green to 9 tee does not feel like any walk anywhere in SW Florida.

2.  Sorry, would love to take some time to answer this, but it is late.  If I have time tomorrow I will.

3.  Golly, I hope this does not sound golf course snobbish.  But, in our group, the guys who had not played too many top 100 courses liked Calusa as well or better than Seminole, but those who had played many great, classic courses clearly favored Seminole.  They loved Calusa, but ranked Seminole higher.

[John Mayhugh]

One of the questions I've been thinking about is if Calusa is just too tough? For instance you said you were just thrilled to get on the greens and noticed more the steep drop offs on the periphery than some of the internal contours, so I wonder if it's toughness takes away, or maybe better said "distracts," the golfer from the rest of the course's architectural merits?

The recovery shots can be very difficult, but I don't think the course is too tough - especially to the extent that it affects how people evaluate it.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Lots of good discussion on this, I do have a couple quick thoughts, as well as some answers to questions Patrick directed to me.  Thought- one of the key reasons Seminole is so highly regarded is the use of the natural features of the site.  It is not just because it seems more natural as a whole, or was just blessed with better land than many courses.  Ross just used the features so well.  Could we compare it to Dornoch?  I am sure someone has somewhere, but the use of a ridge of dunes seems like an apt comparison.  So, for many who love golf course architecture, it is very highly regarded.

The other reality about both courses is that the environment of the club and clubhouse do impact many people.  They both just feel cool and exclusive but still laid-back.  Depending on your experience during your visit, who you were with, etc, it does impact your perspective on the course a bit.

Patrick

1.  Calusa does not feel overly manufactured to many first-time visitors.  However, if you pay close attention, it is fairly obvious.  Quick example- the walk from 8 green to 9 tee does not feel like any walk anywhere in SW Florida.

2.  Sorry, would love to take some time to answer this, but it is late.  If I have time tomorrow I will.

3.  Golly, I hope this does not sound golf course snobbish.  But, in our group, the guys who had not played too many top 100 courses liked Calusa as well or better than Seminole, but those who had played many great, classic courses clearly favored Seminole.  They loved Calusa, but ranked Seminole higher.

Matt, appreciate the reply.

You mention again that Seminole has both a fantastic natural site, and a fantastic routing by Ross that uses those features so well. I couldn't agree more.

My question is which of those features were they not able to create at Calusa? Or is it more just the bottom line that they are natural at Seminole and not at CP?

1) Certainly if you pay close attention and really think about it you can realize that Calusa was manufactured. However I also think it was built in such a way and done to look so natural that nothing looks out of place. (If you didn't know for instance that elevation didn't existed in SWFL) In other words given the fact that there is elevation at CP where it doesn't exist in a flat region, is there anything that looks out of place or unnatural?

2) Would very much be interested to read it if you do have time, thanks.

3) See this is what is interesting to me. Why would/does CP "fool"(assuming you don't agree with their evaluation) the less-traveled golfers but not the ones who have seen more of the world's top courses?



So far the consensus is Calusa is a good 7 (maybe an and Seminole is a 9. I've heard Calusa isn't as memorable. I've heard it gets minus points for being manufactured. I haven't heard a single architectural feature that CP is missing that Seminole has. What makes Seminole a world class course and differentiates it from Calusa which most are saying is a good or great/excellent course but that is not world class? What does Calusa have that "fools"/makes so many people think it is as good or better than Seminole?

[JC Jones]

One of the features of Seminole that makes it so great is the routing.  The use of both the sand dune ridges and the low areas of the course are absolutely phenomenal.  For example, my two favorite holes are #15 and #4.  These two hole could not be more different in strategy or topography.

What about Calusa's routing is "genius?" 

[Patrick Hodgdon]

One of the features of Seminole that makes it so great is the routing.  The use of both the sand dune ridges and the low areas of the course are absolutely phenomenal.  For example, my two favorite holes are #15 and #4.  These two hole could not be more different in strategy or topography.

What about Calusa's routing is "genius?" 

I have to agree with you JC. Personally I loved the routing and especially #14's use of both dune ridges. That green complex, with the front and back bunkers, as well as the steep slope to the green is maybe the best I've ever seen.

The Calusa routing I would call genius because save for the intimacy you get at Seminole (which is what I argued set it apart) it has everything else Seminole has. It uses the wind the same way by always changing the directions on the compass throughout the round. I would argue that like Seminole it has a "net effect" factor to the wind so that there isn't certain direction of wind that helps more than another. Calusa's routing also gives you a huge variety of holes much like Seminole. (And arguably more than even Seminole as 1+10 are pretty similar there while no two at CP are) Since you gave me #4 and #15 at Seminole I would give you #8 and #17. Or #4 and #9. Or #12 and #14. They could not be more different in strategy or topography.

[JESII]

Patrick,

What about 1 and 10 at Seminole are similar?

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I would say same direction and similar topography. They do have different strategies however. 

[JC Jones]

How much of a role does the wind play with trees lining most of the holes?

With water in play on 10 of the 18 holes, would you say that it dictates strategy on all of those 10 holes?

[Niall Hay]

so where does Mountain Lake CC fit in this discussion?

[Patrick Hodgdon]

How much of a role does the wind play with trees lining most of the holes?

A lot. The trees really don't block much of it at all.

With water in play on 10 of the 18 holes, would you say that it dictates strategy on all of those 10 holes?

I'm not sure if you mean do you have to take the water into account on where you play your next shot or if you mean if it is just a factor in your mind on those holes.

Water really dictates strategy I would say on holes #4 and #9 and a little bit on holes #6, #10 and #17.

It comes into play and is a factor but doesn't really dictate strategy on holes #11, #14, #16 and #18.

It doesn't really dictate or factor much on hole #5.

[Anthony_Nysse]

so where does Mountain Lake CC fit in this discussion?

Wrong tier of courses....

[Matt Harrison]

1 other thought on this discussion as it relates to the routing- Both courses are meant to play firm and fast and both experience consistent winds.  But, Seminole is both more open and closer to the ocean, so the wind is a more consistent factor.  As a result, I think people who analyze such things (certainly no one on this site!!!) pay closer attention the strategic nature of the routing and how Ross used the wind.   Does that make sense?

Patrick- I appreciate your passion for Calusa, and I share it.  I have played it a bunch and every time I was excited to drive in the gate, look where the pin was on 3, and get ready to play a great course.  With that said, I still Seminole deserves to be ranked higher.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

1 other thought on this discussion as it relates to the routing- Both courses are meant to play firm and fast and both experience consistent winds.  But, Seminole is both more open and closer to the ocean, so the wind is a more consistent factor.  As a result, I think people who analyze such things (certainly no one on this site!!!) pay closer attention the strategic nature of the routing and how Ross used the wind.   Does that make sense?

Patrick- I appreciate your passion for Calusa, and I share it.  I have played it a bunch and every time I was excited to drive in the gate, look where the pin was on 3, and get ready to play a great course.  With that said, I still Seminole deserves to be ranked higher.

Matt-

I agree the wind is a bigger factor at Seminole and is a bigger part to the genius of the routing. But the use of the wind in the routing is certainly not missing at Calusa either.

Matt I am not set at all on trying to say/prove that Calusa is equal to or better than Seminole. Just the opposite in fact. My passion in this thread is the intention of my initial post which was to try and highlight or put my finger on what architecturally is better at Seminole as opposed to Calusa. I want to be able to communicate to people I caddy for or that I talk to on the subject of why Seminole is the better course. My problem as I stated before was that when I tried to figure out why I couldn't come up with much. In other words my purpose for this thread is that I am trying to figure out what Calusa lacks in comparison to one of the world's best courses on the other side of the state.

No one has really answered that question sufficiently yet in my opinion. I've heard that Seminole is more memorable. I've heard that Seminole's routing is genius based on the use of the natural features of the dunes on the site, which I've wholeheartedly agreed with. My best attempt to put my finger on the quality Seminole has that CP doesn't is the intimacy and the openness of the Seminole routing. But no one has said specifically what Calusa is lacking architecturally, other than not having the pre-existing natural elevation on the site, in comparison to Seminole, which is why I am still asking more questions.

If you have the time I'd be interested to hear why you think that CP got the nod as equal or better from the less traveled in your group.

[Matt Harrison]

Patrick- I appreciate the spirit of your thread.  I agree that Calusa's routing is very good, and the holes do have some great strategic qualities.  To be honest, I don't have the energy today for a hole-by-hole comparison, and I don't have enough experience at Seminole to analyze each hole.  Those comparisons are always interesting....

I know that I left Seminole amazed at the quality of the design, and loving the strategic nature of so many holes. 

Here is my best guess at why many folks who are a little less-traveled and maybe not as well-read (boy, I hate how that sounds!) enjoy Calusa as much as Seminole.  Seminole is visually very attractive, but understated in comparison to Calusa.  Calusa has more dramatic elevation changes, more dramatic water hazards, and arguably more visually dramatic bunkering.  Most golfers are impacted by those things, while more experienced golf course aficiandos see past those things to the routing.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Patrick- I appreciate the spirit of your thread.  I agree that Calusa's routing is very good, and the holes do have some great strategic qualities.  To be honest, I don't have the energy today for a hole-by-hole comparison, and I don't have enough experience at Seminole to analyze each hole.  Those comparisons are always interesting....

I know that I left Seminole amazed at the quality of the design, and loving the strategic nature of so many holes. 

Here is my best guess at why many folks who are a little less-traveled and maybe not as well-read (boy, I hate how that sounds!) enjoy Calusa as much as Seminole.  Seminole is visually very attractive, but understated in comparison to Calusa.  Calusa has more dramatic elevation changes, more dramatic water hazards, and arguably more visually dramatic bunkering.  Most golfers are impacted by those things, while more experienced golf course aficiandos see past those things to the routing.

No worries Matt. Hole by hole comparisons can be very tedious so I understand that although interesting it takes a great deal of effort to post.

I think you are correct in that Seminole is much more understated than Calusa. Both are beautiful, but Calusa can, I believe (and you seem to hint at), take your breath away more than Seminole.

You state that the more experienced golfers "see past those things" and focus on the routing. Is there something you and the other more traveled golfers saw when looking past those things that Calusa's routing was lacking? Or do you think it is more that Seminole gets the nod for being so unique and so genius with its routing on its site?

As a follow-up and something interesting to think about in comparison of the two courses, what was the more difficult feat: finding the genius routing Ross did at Seminole or creating from scratch a routing that manufactures 60 feet of elevation while all the while looking completely natural? In other words is it harder for an architect to design a great course when they are limited to what the site gives them or when they have a completely blank canvass and come up with everything on their own?

Another question in general for everyone, why or why not is Calusa an 8 on the Doak scale? If you think it's a 7 what holds it back architecturally?

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Some more questions I've been thinking about in regards to this comparison (that may or may not draw out some more answers):

Do more visually attractive bunkers and hazards do anything for a course architecturally? Matt mentions this may be a reason a lot of people, perhaps less traveled to great courses, say Calusa is better than Seminole. He then says the more traveled ones "see past that" to the routing and give Seminole the nod.

Tom Doak says this in the What are Great Greens thread:

"I think great greens are greens which make it matter which side of the flag you miss on, and make it matter which side of the fairway you're approaching from.  They are certainly not just about putting, they're also about recovery play and strategy."

This seems to be a very fitting description at both Seminole and Calusa Pines. Am I wrong?

If you could write an equation for what adds up to a great course what would it look like?

I am assuming it would include routing+greens+green surrounds+shot values+.....

Where does Seminole have a higher score than CP?

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