[Anthony Gray]

  How much of it lies in that it is a par 4?

  If it was stil a par 5, what would we say about it architecturally?

  Are there holes that were formerly par 5s and now par 4s that we consider great?

  What current par 5s out there that will become par 4s in the future due to advancements in technology?

  How does the reduction of par effect the way we evaluate the design of the hole?

  Anthony

  

[Jud_T]

Good question Anthony...Clearly a great part of it's appeal is that it has essentially played as a par 4 1/2 for most players for most of the last century...This is why the new open tees are a good idea.  If you are coming into the hole with a wedge or short iron the bunker and the road are much less ominous....

[Kalen Braley]

Anthony,

The pre-occupation with par is difficiult to overcome because no doubt if it were still a par 5, players would be smacking thier chops to get one back there instead of looking at it with dread with the prospect of having to make 4 to not lose any ground.

I see the road hole in a slightly different way.  I see it as quirk-o-mous maximus, yet if anyone built something like that today they would get run out of town and put thier career in jeopardy.  Sure I've heard all the explanations about why it was OK then, but not now...but quirk is quirk in my book and I'll take it by the truckloads....however I can get it....either ancient or modern in origin.

[Scott Warren]

Who cares what par it is?

It has a brilliant, thrilling drive; a brilliant, thrilling approach and a fantastic green.

What more do you need?

[Kalen Braley]

P.S.

[Begin Rant]

Jim Engh does a ton of quirky stuff and I can't figure out for the life of me why he gets bashed so often on this site.  If its not your cup of tea, fine then move on, but why bash him on the way out?  Yes alot of his stuff isn't natural looking, I get that...but on the fun and epic scale its way up there. In the end I'd much rather take "artifical and wicked fun" to play over "natural and boring" to play any day of the week.

As GCA'ers we should be accepting of quirk in all its forms.

[End Rant]

With that I'm off my soap-box..maybe I need to include this in the "Bite-me" thread.   

[Anthony Gray]

Who cares what par it is?

It has a brilliant, thrilling drive; a brilliant, thrilling approach and a fantastic green.

What more do you need?

  My first introduction to the fame of the Road Hole was an article in SI. The writer went to St A with the hopes of parring the Road Hole. In his mind a par on TRH would be a great feat and life time memory. He did it on his last try. I would think that a par would be an accopmplishment. I stil have the ball from my first par there. Sometimes I sit on my porch with my black boxers, a iced dramboie, a cigar and that ball. And a tear in my eye.

  Anthony

[Peter Zarlengo]

Anthony,

I think what I enjoy so much about the road hole (and some of the better road hole templates I've seen) is that there's always the possibility of making a six, even after smacking a perfect drive right over the hotel, if you don't keep your head on straight (I would know). I think a lot of that has to do with the slopes around the green, the hazards, the size of the green, and the shape of the green. That hole also seems to tighten up and widen out in tons of interesting places, forcing strategic decisions and requiring good execution. All of the above is something I really like, and something thats missing in lots of average and even good golf in the States.

I also think a lot of its greatness has to do with the fact that its such a great match play hole, with its timing in the round and the strategic qualities of the hole. Perhaps its is only enhanced as a great match hole by the fact that a par score is tough to pin down on it.

[JESII]

I would think that a par would be an accopmplishment. I stil have the ball from my first par there. Sometimes I sit on my porch with my black boxers, a iced dramboie, a cigar and that ball. And a tear in my eye.

  Anthony

Wow!



As to the primary question...it's all because we'll take more chances when we need something (par) han when we want somehing (birdie) so it generates more risk taking as a par 4.

[Kyle Harris]

How does the 210 yard approach change when the hole is made a Par 5?

Who has the power to give that extra stroke?
Why do golfers yield that power to someone else?

If you can make the hole in 4, make it in 4. If you can make it in 5, make it in 5. If you can make it in 3, then make it in 3.

[JESII]

I guarantee your putting stats are different on par putts versus birdie or bogey putts...

[JMEvensky]

I guarantee your putting stats are different on par putts versus birdie or bogey putts...

I have seen(I think) the PGA Tour stats for same-length putts for par versus bogey.Think that holds true for amateurs in general or do you think that it follows  handicaps?

[JESII]

I would think it's relevant, but muted, for amateurs...the real place you see it with amateurs (even Kyle) would be on eagle putts or birdie putts on real tough holes.

[Kyle Harris]

I would think it's relevant, but muted, for amateurs...the real place you see it with amateurs (even Kyle) would be on eagle putts or birdie putts on real tough holes.

The psychological aspect exists, for sure. But would it exist without the concept of Par?

I think the sense of opportunity cost is almost innate when it comes to competition. The golfers just "knows" when a putt matters a touch more, situationally.

[JESII]

Watchu talkin' 'bout Willis?

[Kyle Harris]

Watchu talkin' 'bout Willis?

You stick an approach from 200 out after a great drive to within a few feet.

There is inherently more pressure to "seal the deal" after that shot than if that shot from 200 out was your fifth.

Without the idea of par, it's only natural that putts for a lower score on the hole would be more difficult mentally.

[JMEvensky]

I think the sense of opportunity cost is almost innate when it comes to competition. The golfers just "knows" when a putt matters a touch more, situationally.

I think I agree with this.But,you'd be talking about an awfully small group--those with a lot of competitive experience in stroke play.

[Kyle Harris]

I think the sense of opportunity cost is almost innate when it comes to competition. The golfers just "knows" when a putt matters a touch more, situationally.

I think I agree with this.But,you'd be talking about an awfully small group--those with a lot of competitive experience in stroke play.

Only in tournament situations.

What about the individual golfer's situation as I outlined above? I think every golfer knows when a rare 3 or 4 is within possibility.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kalen,

I like "quirk", but, I doubt that the retail and country club golfer likes quirk as a steady diet.

Anthony,

I think the configuration and angle of the green along with the surrounding features is what makes the Road Hole so great.

That green works well in almost any and every environment.

I happen to like the green and especially the surrounds at # 7 at NGLA over # 17 at TOC, but, they both have the basics that make them fabulous golf holes, holes where being close to the green doesn't provide any guarantee or even certainty that you'll be able to up and down it.

Add the element of the wind and it's an even more wonderful and challenging green/surrounds

[Bill_McBride]

I would think that a par would be an accopmplishment. I stil have the ball from my first par there. Sometimes I sit on my porch with my black boxers, a iced dramboie, a cigar and that ball. And a tear in my eye.

  Anthony

Wow!

Poetry, sheer poetry.

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