[Anthony Gray]

  Original is North Berwick I assume?

  Where was it firts copied?

  Shinny had one before NGLA?

  If so, did CBM copy Shinny or NB?

  Is it the most copied hole in golf?

  Does it matter if it is uphill, downhill or level? Which is better?

  Is 12 at Pebble Beach a Redan?

  Why the name Redan? Where did it come from?

  Why this hole? What makes it signifigant architecturally?

  Is it copied more in the US than GB&I?

  What top 100 courses have a Redan?

  Please Discuss.....

  ARG

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:

The Redan at Shinnecock was ALSO built by C. B. Macdonald.  I think it was after he built National, but I'm not positive of that.  Either way, he built them both with first-hand knowledge of North Berwick, and did not copy one from the other.

[Ian Larson]

Isn't redan a form of miltary fortification from like medieval times?  ....and not the knights jousting dinner show

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony:

The Redan at Shinnecock was ALSO built by C. B. Macdonald.  I think it was after he built National, but I'm not positive of that.  Either way, he built them both with first-hand knowledge of North Berwick, and did not copy one from the other.

  After playing Shinnecock he built NGLA and then went back to Shinnecock and changed a par 3 into a Redan? Is that correct? I was under the impression that Shinnecock came first. Because of the slope of the green does it play better downhill, ie Pac Dunes,Chambers Bay?

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

  What makes the hole so special? Is it because of the way the ball feeds? Most par threes in the States are "target golf".

  Anthony

[Ian Larson]

  What makes the hole so special? Is it because of the way the ball feeds? Most par threes in the States are "target golf".

  Anthony

I would say that's exactly it. It's a one shotter with options? The option being that it can be placed short of the green and kicked on to it? Or to just go for the green? I haven't seen NB in person but I'm pretty sure it has the land feature that acts as a kick plate onto the green from the side?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Anthony,
I know it's not as exciting or social, but typing "redan" into the search box gives-up 40 pages of threads.

Have fun, report back.




p.s. Glad you didn't hurt yourself in that Harbourtown bunker.  

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,
I know it's not as exciting or social, but typing "redan" into the search box gives-up 40 pages of threads.

Have fun, report back.




p.s. Glad you didn't hurt yourself in that Harbourtown bunker.  

  Jim,

  The search engine is like getting your back waxed for someone with ADD. Instant gratification is less taxing.

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

Isn't redan a form of miltary fortification from like medieval times?  ....and not the knights jousting dinner show

  Played the original and I do not remember the fortress.

  T Gray

[SL_Solow]

As to the name, the Redan was one of the defensive positions in the battle of Sevastopol during the Crimean War.  There was also a "Little Redan".  The resemblance in the land form led to the naming of the original hole at North Berwick.

[Anthony Gray]

As to the name, the Redan was one of the defensive positions in the battle of Sevastopol during the Crimean War.  There was also a "Little Redan".  The resemblance in the land form led to the naming of the original hole at North Berwick.

  I would assume from this that because the green is slightly visable from the tee at North Berwick that the troops had a little ridge in front of them to hide behind and thus offer defense....... Another reason to believe golf immitates golf.

  ARG

 

[Ed Oden]

Anthony,
I know it's not as exciting or social, but typing "redan" into the search box gives-up 40 pages of threads.

True.  Of course if you misspell the word, it results in 0 hits.

[Ed Oden]

.

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,
I know it's not as exciting or social, but typing "redan" into the search box gives-up 40 pages of threads.

True.  Of course if you misspell the word, it results in 0 hits.

   

[Ally Mcintosh]

Anthony:

The Redan at Shinnecock was ALSO built by C. B. Macdonald.  I think it was after he built National, but I'm not positive of that.  Either way, he built them both with first-hand knowledge of North Berwick, and did not copy one from the other.

  After playing Shinnecock he built NGLA and then went back to Shinnecock and changed a par 3 into a Redan? Is that correct? I was under the impression that Shinnecock came first. Because of the slope of the green does it play better downhill, ie Pac Dunes,Chambers Bay?

  Anthony

Anthony,

Shinnecock the course came first... But the Redan wasn't there with Dunn / Davis's original design... MacDonald & Raynor remodelled the course in 1916 and introduced the Redan (after NGLA) before Flynn redesigned it again (because of highway intrusions) in 1931...

That's how I understand it...

Incidentally, I've just been looking at a survey diagram of North Berwick's Redan from Robert Hunter's "The Links"... Interesting to note that not only was the bunker on the left held up by railroad ties but so were the ones on the right and they were in a different configuration to those of today...

[Mac Plumart]

One question...one point....

Question...what would you guys call a redan style green and green complex on a par 4 hole?  Would you still call it a Redan?  



Point...I know it is funny the way Anthony handles his misspellings.  His change of Harbor Town/Harbuor Town was super funny.  But when I asked him if he misspelled words on purpose to be funny, he said he had a learning disability that makes reading and spelling a little difficult for him.  So, if this is the case and he takes so much grief on here for his misspellings...don't you have to tip your cap to him for perserverance, humility, and good humor in regards to him battling through the disability and putting up with the teasing with such humor?  Of course if he is teasing me about the disabililty then he "got me"...but either way it is something to think about.

[Mike Demetriou]

As to the name, the Redan was one of the defensive positions in the battle of Sevastopol during the Crimean War.  There was also a "Little Redan".  The resemblance in the land form led to the naming of the original hole at North Berwick.

Shelly, at dinner this week, you neglected to mention that you served in the Crimean War - I can't believe the life you've lead!
 

On another note, I've played some holes labeled as "reverse redans" -  does anyone know where that concept was first used with success or acclaim? Or is that just a catch-all term to describe a less that faithful redan?

[SL_Solow]

Mike;  Reverse Redan merely reverses the features; slope is form left to right and hazard is on the lower right.  Hard to remember given my age.

[Bill_McBride]

On another note, I've played some holes labeled as "reverse redans" -  does anyone know where that concept was first used with success or acclaim? Or is that just a catch-all term to describe a less that faithful redan?

The Creek's Redan is a good example.  It's just a left to right version.  We have one at Pensacola CC that plays at 240 from the tips, 215 blue, 200 from the whites.  The left side kicker is there, it's just subtle, and it's dangerous for anyone prone to a double cross as there is OB hard left.   

[Thomas McQuillan]

  Original is North Berwick I assume?
Yes

  Where was it firts copied?
Shinny I Presume

  Shinny had one before NGLA?
Yes

  If so, did CBM copy Shinny or NB?
CBM designed the one at shinny

  Is it the most copied hole in golf?
I'd say the island green par 3 or long 18th with water in Front is

  Does it matter if it is uphill, downhill or level? Which is better?
A downhill one makes it harder to work the ball across the green

  Is 12 at Pebble Beach a Redan?
Never played it

  Why the name Redan? Where did it come from?
I think its Frech

  Why this hole? What makes it signifigant architecturally?
It gives a significant advantage to the shotmaker

  Is it copied more in the US than GB&I?
US

  What top 100 courses have a Redan?
Cant say exactly but there are probly at least 10 courses

  Please Discuss.....

  ARG

[Jim_Kennedy]

One question...one point....

Question...what would you guys call a redan style green and green complex on a par 4 hole?  Would you still call it a Redan?  

I think that's been the approach  (sorry, couldn't resist)

[Mac Plumart]

Help me Jim...that has been the approach...means yes, you still call it a Redan...however it has an extra shot meaning the approach?  I'm dumb so help me.

[TEPaul]

"Question...what would you guys call a redan style green and green complex on a par 4 hole?  Would you still call it a Redan? "


Yes, I would call it a redan green. The Creek Club basically has a redan green on their first hole (about a 375 yd par 4) and then their #8 is a reverse redan par 3.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mac,
The Redan is the green, and a recognizable element that can be used on 4s or 5s.

Look at the review of Fishers Island. There you'll find a "Punchbowl" green being used on a hole configuration that's known as an "Alps".

Every architect uses elements that have proved effective in the past in combination with his own modern ideas.

[Jim Sweeney]

The ninth at Fairfield is slightly uphill and one of the best Redan's I've played. Camargo's in level- the right,; side of the green sirface is visible but the left is not; some on this board think it is the best in the US. Yale's is slightly downhill; I think it detracts from the ho;e of one can see the entire surface, as one is more apt to play directly to the visible hole location. Granted Yale's redan is not the strongest of the type, but I have had the same reaction to other downhill Redan's such as at Black Creek, Silva's homage to McDonald/Raynor.

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