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Dave McCollum

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Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« on: February 23, 2010, 08:32:16 PM »
What an interesting discussion.  As usual, I'm late to the party, don't have much to add, and probably won't be read because you folks move on to other threads before I do, if I ever get there.  Threads like this one are why I am here at all.  I don't have the time to be more active and would rather play golf than rate golf courses.  When I do rarely comment, it is usually from my world of the public golfer and course operator--a world far removed from the many of these discussions.  Simply to have the chance to listen to the comments of 1500 passionate lovers of the game from all around the world is a rare and valuable experience for me.   So, thanks to all for your thoughtful and passionate participation.

I'm no expert about golf.  I can't play a lick but am the owner/operator of a small golf course in a rural area.  The kind of golf we have here sounds a lot like the golf you all played as kids.  It's cheap, scruffy, and certainly not opulent.  We have a beautiful location that many would envy, but plenty of warts like power lines, close proximity to the town shitter (treatment plant), and a annual maintenance budget less than some initiation fees.  Mike Young and other folks have pretty much covered anything I could add from my perspective.  I'm just a small businessman getting by how I must in my market.  It's not easy, nor very profitable.

I would like to second those thoughts from many about providing access to junior golfers.  I believe it is the future for both golf and the business of golf.  I also put my money where my mouth is sometimes.  As I mentioned in another thread, they are the future customers.  We charge $5 weekdays, $10 weekends unless they play with their fee-paying parents, then they play free.  We also let a couple of golf teams from small schools play and practice here for free.  They are asked to defer to the fee paying customers and they do it cheerfully and politely.

To keep their fees down, our pass holders (they call themselves members) organize a couple of clean-up days a year.  The kids and the golf teams also pitch in.  It is pretty amazing what many hands can do in a few hours of work.  Think of 400-500 work hours for the price of a meal and round of golf.  Everyone that works here works alongside and provides direction.      

Another thing that I wanted to mention is an anecdote from a golf course owner’s convention that I once attended.  There were a couple of hundred people listening to a panel of experts (those guys Mike Y. mentioned) talking about how to acquire, appraise, finance (it was years ago), and sell golf courses.  One of the funnier guys on the panel asked us all why we are in the golf business?  Someone grumbled, “Gotta do something.”  Then he asked us if we did this for a good ROI and other business reasons.  Room was deathly quiet.  Finally, he asked, “How many of you guys do it because its fun?”  Every hand in the room went up.

I find a similar connection with our customers, the regular public golfer in my case.  I can’t think of many legal businesses where your customers are so determined to have a good time.  Have your greens in good shape, your course playable, a decent pace of play, and the vast majority are happy, whatever they shot.  Sometimes I think you have to go out of your way to piss them off.  I also suspect that these folks would have just as much fun playing a goat ranch as an architectural gem.  The way most of us play, probably more fun on the goat ranch where we can afford the golf balls and beer.  

A final word from this remote, insignificant part of the golf world: the last couple of years we’ve held our own.  Play is down a little but revenue per round has made up the difference.  Yes, we are an affordable little course in a small town.  But even in tough times, folks still know how to have fun and enjoy their golf.  

I don’t know how to plug any of this into practical business model.  It’s all about a simple game and keeping it fun to play.

Michael Rossi

Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2010, 08:44:07 PM »
Dave

Cheers to you and your club

PThomas

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Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2010, 08:49:18 PM »
Dave

Cheers to you and your club

ditto..pls tell us what club it is
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

archie_struthers

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Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2010, 09:20:55 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Dave ...God bless you and keep you healthy....I'm sure your place is awesome and fun for the people who visit. Attitudes like yours have made the game better for so many others...keep up the good work !!!!!

Dave McCollum

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Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2010, 02:50:03 PM »
The course is Canyon Springs in Twin Falls, Idaho.  If you are in the area give us a call.  I'll hook you up.  There are two courses here in the Snake River Canyon, ours and Blue Lakes CC.  IMHO both are worth playing.  No matter what you think of the golf, you will like the scenery. 

Bill_McBride

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Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2010, 03:22:15 PM »
The course is Canyon Springs in Twin Falls, Idaho.  If you are in the area give us a call.  I'll hook you up.  There are two courses here in the Snake River Canyon, ours and Blue Lakes CC.  IMHO both are worth playing.  No matter what you think of the golf, you will like the scenery.  

Thanks for that great story, Dave.  In this age of paying for past excesses   >:( :P  you may have the best model of all.  I wish I made it through Twin Falls once in a while to see your operation.  It does sound like fun!

I'm curious about one thing.......does your course actually interact with the canyon?   I spent a summer as a surveyor on a natural gas pipeline many years ago in SE Washington State.  At one point we crossed over the Snake River down in that canyon.  It was a steep, rocky slope with the river far below.  It wasn't very golfy terrain!!
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 03:24:17 PM by Bill_McBride »

Dave McCollum

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Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2010, 06:22:16 PM »
We’re in an odd little spot in an otherwise rocky canyon.  About two miles upstream is Shoshone Falls (higher than Niagara) and 2 miles above that is Twin Falls.  Legend has it that when The Bonneville Flood roared through here, empting most of the inland sea that covered most of Utah, this spot was sort of a wide eddy below the falls.  The Snake River Canyon was carved by the flood flows that have been estimated to be 10X the flow of the Amazon for a year or two.  We have rounded river pebbles here that are as big as Volkswagens.  For the next 8,000 years the sand just built up in the flood plain and blew in from the surrounding desert.  The sandy soil is nearly worthless for agriculture and very deep in spots.  We also have lots of rocks all around us.  So, yes, we do interact with rocks and the canyon, and have good bones for golf on rolling terrain.  Our 400 ft waterfalls are more natural and a bit more dramatic than Trump’s.

We have to do a lot of things to make the golf work in our affordable market.  For example, we have lovely cold springs and an artesian geothermal well.  We generate all of the power we use from the geothermal pressure.  Then we mix the hot (perfect hot tub temperature) and cold water and annually grow a few hundred thousand pounds of fish (tilapia and sturgeon).  Only then do we pump the water on the golf course and grow grass.  There are a few advantages being down in a 500 ft hole including a micro climate that lets play golf about 10 months a year.

I don’t want to toot my horn too loudly.  The golf could be much, much better than it is.  That’s why I read this site:  to whittle away at my ignorance.  I inherited this course from my father and it is still a family operation.  However, for most of my working career I lived in LA and made print ads and TV commercials.  Just to demonstrate how little I thought about golf for most of my life, I once spent about 3 weeks on location in Scotland (2 trips) and don’t remember noticing a golf course!  Once properly addicted late in life, I’ve tried to rectify this oversight.

Thanks for the kind comments.

Sean Leary

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Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2010, 07:16:18 PM »
I have been through there and it is an incredible site. You should post some pics, as it is wild...

Dick Kirkpatrick

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Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2010, 08:35:47 PM »
Dave

To me you are describing just the kind of golf establishments that the world needs more of.

It would make many of the first tee efforts in other communites look foolish considering the money they
spend to build them and charge the kids to play.

Did your father or family build the golf course, was it your family farm, did you get advice from an architect or
an agricultural college etc. etc.

Please fill us in and post some pictures. I would love to see the course and the waterfalls that trumped Trump.

Dave McCollum

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Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2010, 10:05:22 PM »
Sorry guys, I dropped the ball due to some other business and some time away.  I’ll post some pictures if I can figure out how.  Anybody got some directions?  In the meantime, we have a website done by a member in exchange for golf:

www.canyonspringsgolf.com

Pretty crude presentation, but you’ll get a feel for the site.

Dick—

Yeah, my father built the course.  He hired a young kid fresh out of college.  He designed and built the original 9 holes.  His first course and maybe his first job of any kind.  His name was/is Max Mueller.  He’s something of a mystery man.  After this job, he added 9 holes to the Blue Lakes CC across the river, designed and built a 9-holer in Salmon, ID, and a couple of other 9-holers in Montana.  Then he just sort of disappeared from the radar in the late 1970’s.  Nobody around here has encountered a trace of him since.  I’ve always thought it strange he never came back to check out the evolution of his first born.

If anyone has ever heard of Max, let me know.  I’d love to get in touch.  My email is listed in the members list.  There is a Mueller listed as a member here, but his email isn’t listed and I don’t know much about communicating with you guys behind the scene.

When my Dad got around to adding a second nine, and no trace of Max could be found, he hired an old pro GCA out of CA, Bob Baldock.  Oddly, we’ve had fewer problems and admire the work of the rookie more than that of the experienced pro. 

I may be a sentimental old fart, but when we HAVE to renovate irrigation and start digging the place up and making improvements, I want to use talented young associate CGA’s who have worked on great courses designed by their famous employers.  It’s the family tradition to give these talented young guys a shot, especially in this brave new world.  I already have some guys in mind, as I told Tom Doak, when he come up with the same idea for some of his amazing associates.  They have to be young because this is going to take awhile.  They have to be reasonable if we are to keep this place affordable.

Coming back soon.  We have a golf course to wake up from hibernation.

Cory Brown

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Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2010, 10:33:45 PM »
Dave,

I played your course about ten years ago and really enjoyed it.  Like you say it was a little rough around the edges, but the location is unlike anything else I have ever seen before.  I remember commenting right before I hit a shot, "What if you hit the power lines", thinking that it was highly unlikely.  Sure enough I hit the power lines.  I played the ball as it lied, I should have kept my shot lower.

I agree about the waterfalls as well, it really is quite a place.  Thanks for the background on the site, and thanks for posting.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2010, 12:07:37 AM »
...  There is a Mueller listed as a member here, but his email isn’t listed and I don’t know much about communicating with you guys behind the scene.
...

Here is a link to a message posted by a Mueller on this site. Follow the link to the message, then click on the cartoon bubble below his name on the left, and you can send him an personal message.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34095.msg684083/#msg684083
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill_McBride

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Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2010, 09:08:49 AM »
What a cool bridge in the distance!



And yes, the course is down in the canyon, very nice setting.

Dave McCollum

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Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2010, 11:28:40 AM »
Garland—

Thanks, that was easy.

Cory—

You should have read the local rules on the card:  Power lines hits must be replayed, no penalty.  Doesn’t happen very often, but it sure seems like the only shots that hit the lines are perfect shots hit on perfect launch angles.

We’ve always been scruffy and rough--matches our setting and keeps costs down.  IMO, the course plays best firm and fast which usually means our share of brown spots in the summer.  It’s not a view shared by most of our golfers.  I guess I liked brown before it was beautiful and am still wasting my wind trying to convince golfers to think about conditions for golf instead of clichés for gardening.

Bill—

You asked about rocks and the canyon.  You picked a shot of the bridge in the background.  That’s the view from the tee at #10, a short, drivable par 4 with, yes, a giant rock dead center in the fairway.  Looks like a rock with a green afro haircut because it has a tree growing out of the rock and another just behind.  The green is down the slope to the left.  This is the most prominent rock in play. 

When I first saw this hole years ago, I said “what a ridiculous hole.”  It is now one of my favorites because there are so many ways to play it.  It is not uncommon to see a foursome hit 4 different shots off the tee—anything from a 7 iron to a driver.  Same with the approach using the slope or flying the green.  Anything left of the rock and not reaching the green, BTW, is dead or gone.  Anything right of the fairway contends with our version of gorse, those dark clumps just visible to the right of the rock.  The gorse lines the entire right side.

Thanks for the remarks.

Brad Huff

Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2010, 01:50:38 PM »
Dave -

God Bless ya brotha for supporting your local high school teams!  As a HS golf coach, I'm consistently amazed at how courses look down their nose at junior golfers.  The best example is of one course here in Dallas that told a high school coach that practiced there "I don't see how I'm making any money off of this so you guys can't practice here anymore."  The same course wouldn't let a kid buy a bucket of balls because he carried a high school bag!  The same course also charged the host team $200 for water and tea that it labeled "Coaches Beverage Station" during a recent tournament!!  Many in the area won't even talked to you without a promise of multiple tournaments hosted in addition to $$/kid for the year.  Unbelievable. 

I get their side of it... we always end up on the good end of the stick.  However at some point don't you have to give back to the community?  It's an understood that we surrender the tee for public play and ALWAYS let groups play through.  It's very frustrating for the coaches in the area and it's only getting worse as the ecomony has declined.

Some in the area are very junior friendly and I'll name them so you can patronize them if you live around Dallas - most notably Indian Creek and Plantation.  Some are impossible to work with. 


From the top of my soapbox,
BH

Dave McCollum

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Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2010, 10:34:27 PM »
Brad--

I’ve got a ton of good reasons why supporting junior golf makes sense in the golf business, probably none original. They have all been stated here and on up to the pricey Madison Avenue ad campaigns done by the Tour and the USGA.  Probably none of them actually “pencil out” for the bean counters or the “character builder” copy writers.  It’s the right thing to do (as you and I agree).  Like any charity or “giving back” program, you do it for your own reasons, expect nothing in return, and have no regrets.

I came to golf late in life.  Golf was my father’s game which I rejected and went my own way.  You have to go no further than this website to know how much access to good, affordable golf has meant these participants.  Passionate lovers of the game and, I assume as such, passionate people who have done good things for people in their lives based on caring about something intensely.  Many would not be here or care so much if they did not have this access.  If I gave a kid a chance to care about doing anything well, through golf, that’s satisfaction enough for me.  If another kid, given the same access and familiarity with my setup, broke into my beer cooler and drank all of my beer with his buddies, so what?  My chips fall on the first kid.  That’s the guy that makes the difference.

RJ_Daley

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Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2010, 02:48:34 PM »
I've been googling around with street view and such.  It looks like Twin Falls is quite a nice place to live.  It is a nice google view from the bridge down into the course valley as well as the look from the course. 

I hope you have many years of the good life there in Twin Falls, Dave.  You obviously make it just that much nicer of a place to live with what you offer in affordable family/community recreation.  I'll sure make it a point to stop in if I ever get through those parts. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dave McCollum

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Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2010, 07:33:25 PM »
Thanks RJ—

Most of the cops, active or retired, play at the local muni, but a few play here as well.  One reviewer described the “almost alarmingly laid back atmosphere” of the clubhouse.  I think that translates as a bunch of guys and gals loudly drinking beer and having a good time.  You’ll fit right in.  However, due to the fact that we also respect family values, we built a “Damn Deck” outside for adults only and shifted the drinkers, smokers, and cussers out there.  They are our best bar customers, of course, and are only too happy to have a reserved spot.

Don’t mean to include you in this crowd if you don’t want to be.  It’s simply that over the years I’ve thought that your comments were among the most reasonable and down to earth.  I’m assuming that you would understand the simple game played here.  The atmosphere is more blue-collar than country club.  OTOH, our country clubs are pretty casual affairs as well.

RJ_Daley

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Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2010, 01:54:30 PM »
Dave, scratch that last, "if I ever get out that way, I'd like to stop bye". 

Make that, "if I can get my posse together, we'll ride out that way and use your damn ol' deck".  ;D ;) 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Colin Macqueen

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Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2012, 09:18:42 AM »
Gentlemen,

I found this thread from March 2010.

I think its message speaks even louder now  than it did over 2 years ago. Are there others in the USA which could hold a candle to this set-up and and light a way through the doom and gloom that seems to pervade golf courses there.  At $40-$50 a round I can imagine Sean Arble, all the way from the UK, wending his weary way to this venue!

Given the fondness of the responses I was wondering if any of the stalwarts on this site had managed to visit.  Bill McBride and RJ Daley wax lyrical about the "idea" and I was wondering if they had ever actually visited. A bit more difficult for Sean I guess!

On the thread someone asked for some images but Dave in his inimitable style produced none but Bill McBride produced a wee example.

Anyway I "swiped " some images from Dave's website (www.canyonspringsgolf.com) as I find the course enchanting and offer them up to you all for your enjoyment and comment.










Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Phil McDade

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Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2012, 10:14:33 AM »
The kind of place where, if I was to retire somewhere else to be near a golf course, I'd retire to.

The commitment to high school golfers, and juniors in general, is to be commended.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Re: Why ? Why ? Why?
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2012, 04:02:00 PM »
Phil - well said.  I stopped in Twin Falls once for lunch and found it be a very beautiful place.  I wish nothing but success for the golf club - what a fantastic philosophy.

Chris Johnston

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Re: Why ? Why ? Why? New
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2012, 04:08:41 PM »
Dave

You are doing good work there.  As someone who owns a small golf course in a rural area, I love what you are doing.  We do the similar local kids out this way.

Keep up the good work - it's good for the game!

I've been to your place...it's pretty cool.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 04:24:46 PM by Chris Johnston »

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