[jg7236]

I have played golf ever since I can remember.  I am sorry to say all my years playing and working on a golf course I really don't know much about course ratings and slopes.  What is the whole process in determining a course rating and slope for a particular course

[Dennis_Harwood]

The course rating is the estimated average score of a "model" scatch golfer--[For Men] That golfer carries his drive 225 yards and with roll his average drive is 250 yards--He can hit his second shot 200 yards with a roll of 20 yards--He has the skill of the average player who makes the match play round at the US Am(32nd qualifier)-- His accuracy and recovery skills are based on that "model"-- A course is rated on a standard of obstacales in the driving area and target area(green) and an objective formula taking into account many factors(wind, roll, forced carry, trees,water, bunkers, green speed and severity, etc) which are used to fix the course rating--(ie--73.5)

(BTW the USGA checks their figures each year, and the length of drive may be changed in the future based on the average driving distance at recent US AMs)--

Then a rating is also given for a "model" bogie golfer--He drives the ball 180 with a roll of 20 for a 200 yard drive and hits his second and maximum of 150 with a 20 roll, or 170-- The bogie golfer has less accuracy than the scatch and tables are used to compute his average score on the same course--

The slope is then the relative difficulty of the course for a bogie golfer, vs a scratch golfer, with 118 reflecting the average(the bogie will on the average score approximately 21 strokes higher than the scratch)-- If the slope is higher(say 135) it reflects that the score of the bogie golfer is expected to be more than 21, rather approximatly 24 strokes higher than the scratch-- The higher the slope the greater the predicted difference in score between the scratch and the bogie--

A high slope DOES NOT MEAN a course is more difficult(It would be possible to have a very difficult course with a high course rating--say 78.5, but a very low slope(say 101)--That would mean it would be difficult for everyone, but because of design(a lot of trouble in the scratch driving area, forcing the scratch to lay up, wide areas for the bogie golfer etc) the difference in score between the scratch and the bogie is about 19 strokes, hence a very low slope--The reverse is also true--

The ratings are assigned by USGA certified rating teams, using charts and objective standards to create unifority in ratings. Courses are to be  rerated between 5 and 7 years(or when major changes are made)

[Rob Curtiss]

Couldnt pin placements and weather conditions effect the slope of a course. I know that it would  have to change everyday then, but after playing Lookout Mountain with 30 mph gusts, drizzle and wet conditions without much roll.  It  played much tougher than its 119 slope.

Doesnt that have to be looked at when assigning a slope number- I would assume that somewhere like Pacific Dunes would play much different based on whether the wind is blowing or not-especially if the pin is in a non friendly place.

[JESII]

Great Britain (maybe the whole world other than US and Mexico) use a term Standard Scratch Score for each day as determined by the weather conditions...there may be other factors but it gets to your point Rob.

[Thomas Dai]

In the UK there's also CSS, Competition Scratch Score, which is when handicaps normally get adjusted.
atb

[Garland Bayley]

Great Britain (maybe the whole world other than US and Mexico) use a term Standard Scratch Score for each day as determined by the weather conditions...there may be other factors but it gets to your point Rob.

So when I look at a course website and it lists the SSS, it is updated every day?
Isn't SSS sometimes printed on scorecards? Do they have multiple versions so they can give out the appropriate one for the day?

[Mark Pearce]

Great Britain (maybe the whole world other than US and Mexico) use a term Standard Scratch Score for each day as determined by the weather conditions...there may be other factors but it gets to your point Rob.

Not quite.  SSS is a constant, decided by factors such as length and par.  However, for handicap adjustments (only normally made based on play in a competition) Competition Scratch Score (CSS) is used.  CSS starts at SSS and is adjusted (in integer increments) according to how better players score on the day compared to SSS.  I believe CSS can go to a maximum of 3 shots higher than SSS.  If scoring is worse than a certain level then the competition is declared as reductions only, which means that whilst handicaps may be cut if players nett score is lower than CSS they will not go up if above their buffer zone (CSS plus from 1 to 4 strokes, depending on starting handicap).

[Garland Bayley]

Great Britain (maybe the whole world other than US and Mexico) use a term Standard Scratch Score for each day as determined by the weather conditions...there may be other factors but it gets to your point Rob.

Not quite.  SSS is a constant, decided by factors such as length and par.  However, for handicap adjustments (only normally made based on play in a competition) Competition Scratch Score (CSS) is used.  CSS starts at SSS and is adjusted (in integer increments) according to how better players score on the day compared to SSS.  I believe CSS can go to a maximum of 3 shots higher than SSS.  If scoring is worse than a certain level then the competition is declared as reductions only, which means that whilst handicaps may be cut if players nett score is lower than CSS they will not go up if above their buffer zone (CSS plus from 1 to 4 strokes, depending on starting handicap).

Thanks Mark

That clears up my questions.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Rob,
It is impossible to figure everything in a course rating. However wind is addressed if the course is located in a windy location, it would factor at Kingsbarns but not usually in Arizona. We do look at charts for windspeed and direction, however rain rarely comes into the rating unless the course is always damp.

Hole locations are another story, we look to see old hole locations when judging the green target area. The usable size of the green is a factor. We did have one a few years ago when a lady asked us " who the hell are you guys" , we explained what we did and she asked that we go away asap. Seems the holes that day were in locations never used in a rotation. Had the same with rough, the day we rated the rough was five inches, players told us they never saw it so bad. So you have to look for some shinnanigans.

All in all it's a fun process

[David_Tepper]

USGA website on course rating & slope:

http://www.usga.org/handicapping/course_ratings/Using-a-Course-Ratings/

[Jason Thurman]

Ed, why would a course stiffen itself up right before being rated? Isn't it better for members if the course gets rated too low rather than too high?

Rob, for that reason I suspect that handicaps at Lookout Mountain travel very well. It was always going to be tough in the conditions our group played, but I can't see how it's a 70/118 or whatever on a normal day either. If I could shoot 73 or so in my top quartile of rounds as a Lookout Mountain member and still carry a 3 handicap, I'd feel pretty confident making a friendly wager on the first tee at other clubs.

[Keith Grande]

Courses like to use slope/rating as cache - a "players club" can use their rating to attract other like minded golfers.  The higher, the better!

[Jason Topp]

I believe the approach of applying ratings for the hypothetical scratch golfer (which results in course rating) and the hypothetical bogey golfer (which results in slope) to be a flawed system due for an update.  With properly controlled statistical analysis, I think it would be relatively straightforward to assign ratings and slopes based on actual scores in competitive events. 

Under the current system, I find significant variation from state to state, particularly with respect to bogey ratings.  For example Bunker Hills in Minnesota and Spencer Golf and Country Club in Iowa were designed by the same designer, on similar ground, play at very similar lengths and have similar course ratings.  I think of them as the same course.  Yet the slope at Spencer is 119 and at Bunker Hills it is 128 (Original 18).

Other comparisons are inherently more subjective but in Minnesota I play courses with 140 slope ratings all of the time.  In Florida or California, a course with a 140 slope is going to be extraordinarily difficult.  I believe the slope ratings in those states are about 5-10 points lower than the similarly difficult courses in Minnesota.

I have no idea which association is correctly applying the formula, but the formula is flawed as well.  The formula assumes a scratch golfer hits the ball 250 yards.  The only scratch golfer I know who comes anywhere near that description is Cory Lewis, who has a much better short game and hits it much straighter than most scratch golfers I play with. 

Nearly every scratch golfer hits it at least 20 yards longer with the average probably around 285. Driving distance statistics from the Minnesota State Amateur (for which the average handicap is probably about scratch or 1) are consistent with this guess.  They show a median drivng distance of 288 with wild variations between 250 and well over 300. I have played with a decent sample of the people on this list and know that the distances they hit the ball are pretty close to the distances recorded for them.

http://www.mngolf.org/mga_amateur_driving_distances.html

I have no statistics or enough experience to analyze the performance of the bogey golfer but I suspect that the assumptions are even more off base there than they are for the scratch golfer.  Bogey golfers range from very short hitters who squeeze a fair amount out of their gamesl to very long hitters who do not.  Most fall somewhere in between. 

if someone can come up with "strokes gained" statistics - which rely upon precise laser measurements, coming up with a formula that uses a database of reliable scores should be a relatively straightforward exercise for someone with a computer and an undergraduate statistics degree.   

[Ed Brzezowski]

Ed, why would a course stiffen itself up right before being rated? Isn't it better for members if the course gets rated too low rather than too high?

Rob, for that reason I suspect that handicaps at Lookout Mountain travel very well. It was always going to be tough in the conditions our group played, but I can't see how it's a 70/118 or whatever on a normal day either. If I could shoot 73 or so in my top quartile of rounds as a Lookout Mountain member and still carry a 3 handicap, I'd feel pretty confident making a friendly wager on the first tee at other clubs.

Jason I can only surmise they think it will make their caps travel better? Been doing this for 12 years and only saw it twice. Most folks are very honest.

[Jim Nugent]

Under the current system, I find significant variation from state to state, particularly with respect to bogey ratings.  For example Bunker Hills in Minnesota and Spencer Golf and Country Club in Iowa were designed by the same designer, on similar ground, play at very similar lengths and have similar course ratings.  I think of them as the same course.  Yet the slope at Spencer is 119 and at Bunker Hills it is 128 (Original 18).
 

Jason, Spencer's website says the course rating from the tips is 72.7, and the slope is 120.  That gives a bogey rating of about 95. 

Couldn't find the numbers for Bunker Hill.  But say the CR also is 72.7 and the slope is 128.  That would give a bogey rating of 96.5.  Not all that different from Spencer. 

The multiplier they use in slope (5.381) makes the differences seem bigger than they actually are.  I believe they should drop slope altogether, and instead use bogey rating. 

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