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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Seventeen out of Eighteen?
« on: February 19, 2010, 11:44:49 AM »
I was just reading Brad Klein's preview of this week's Match Play championship.  He reports that between last year's event and this year's, Jack Nicklaus "revamped 17 of the 18 greens."

Seriously?

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seventeen out of Eighteen?
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2010, 11:46:50 AM »
I heard that too during the telecast!

The real question is what was so special about the 1 green they kept it the same?  ;D :o

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seventeen out of Eighteen?
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2010, 12:00:53 PM »
And I had thought the greens were praised last year.....

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seventeen out of Eighteen?
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2010, 01:27:06 PM »
I played the course for the first time a couple of weeks ago, so I have nothing to compare with from past years.  I do know there are still some very difficult greens there, with major slopes, internal contours, and false fronts that ate my lunch at least five times.

I don't have the turf management knowledge to have been able to see what might have been changed, everything looked about the same from green to green.

It's a very tough course in the old Jack style - lots of aerial game shots and a forced carry on at least 12 holes.  We played it pretty short (thank god) or it would have been over the top.

We played Ritz Carlton / Dove Mountain, Golf Club at Vistoso and finally Southern Dunes up in Maricopa on the brief trip and I definitely enjoyed the latter two more than Dove Mountain.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seventeen out of Eighteen?
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2010, 01:30:07 PM »
I played it in early December. I didn't see any signs of greens having been rebuilt, but I suppose if they did it last spring, it could have all grown in by the time I played there. The don't lack for warmth and sunshine, so if they put enough water on them...

My experience on those greens was the same as Bill's -- steep and difficult to read. I'm noticing a lot of missed 5-6 footers so far this week.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seventeen out of Eighteen?
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2010, 01:52:34 PM »
Is it just me, or does it seem to be extremely irresponsible of the architect to have to come in only one year later and rebuild 94.4% of the greens?  Hope it was on his dime.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seventeen out of Eighteen?
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2010, 01:54:15 PM »
It does seem that JN is doing some design work that is being perceived as too difficult, or as some might say, too tricked up.  NPBGC in Florida has not been well received by the locals and Dismal River has had some major reconstruction.  I wonder what is influencing him to do this - is it someone on his staff or him personally?

Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seventeen out of Eighteen?
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2010, 02:05:04 PM »
There's a logical sarcastic explanation for this.
One double green.
Left the practice putting green alone.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seventeen out of Eighteen?
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2010, 04:14:50 PM »
Greg, could it be he did what the owners asked for?  And after criticism, they didn't have the intestanal fortitude to stick to their convictions?  Or was it the Tour that dictated modifications - not like that's ever happened before ;D  I perfer to withhold judgement until the facts are known.

Jerry, how much does Jack play these days?  It could be that as his game declined, he softened his courses but now he's forgotten that and is looking at things as if he were 30 again.
Coasting is a downhill process

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seventeen out of Eighteen?
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2010, 04:20:51 PM »
another Doak Shaping protege!    ;)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Dean Stokes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seventeen out of Eighteen?
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2010, 04:53:32 PM »
another Doak Shaping protege!    ;)
Yep. Ever since Sebonac ;)
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Seventeen out of Eighteen?
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2010, 06:42:32 PM »
None of the shapers who worked on Sebonack have ever worked with Jack again.  I guess Jack wanted to redo a bunch of the greens at Sebonack, too, but Mr. Pascucci only let him work on two of them.  [I would not have chosen to work on either ... they were fine ... but the client wanted to lengthen the holes in that manner.]

I guess part of the reason is just that Jack doesn't have much else to build right now.

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seventeen out of Eighteen?
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2010, 10:21:49 PM »
I heard on the XM broadcast that the greens had too much slope to get them up to the 12-13 :o stimp they wanted and still have enough pinnable locations.

I found this online

The PGA Tour wanted faster green speeds and more "cupable," or "pinable," locations on each green. It worked with the Ritz-Carlton Golf Club, developer David Mehl and designer Jack Nicklaus.

Out came the architects, who mapped out each green, and recommended places to remove or add material to raise or lower sections. Then came the crews, who cut pieces of green sod, made adjustments in the layers of material beneath championship-caliber surfaces, and put it all back together, very slightly different than it was before.

"The work was extremely subtle," said Wade Dunagan, executive director of the World Golf Championships – Accenture Match Play Championship. "With the exception of a few holes," the changes are nearly invisible. "It was extremely good work, and it makes it a better course.

"We wanted to gain some additional hole locations, and play the greens at faster speeds," Dunagan said. "My opinion is they've accomplished exactly that."

"They went hole by hole, green by green," said Jeff McCormick, director of golf operations for the Ritz-Carlton Golf Club Dove Mountain. "From a construction standpoint, I was thoroughly impressed with the quality and speed of the work."

The work was "unbelievably fantastic," Dunagan agreed. "They got it right. There are absolutely no seams, no lines."

Pieces of sod were cut from the greens, placed on a tarp and watered by hand. "They spray-painted numbers on every single piece of sod," so they could be placed exactly where they were, McCormick said. "They were creating their own puzzle."

Adjustments were made in the drainage structure, and the gravel "that's really the base of the green," McCormick said. "They were barely under the surface. They made the changes, and put the puzzle back together. The grain matched up, everything matched up.

"For them to be able to tweak 17 of 18 greens, and for us to be only closed for eight weeks, is incredible," McCormick said. "And there was virtually no evidence anything had been done when we reopened."

"People thought all the greens were being rebuilt completely," Dunagan said. That was far from the case. In some instances, perhaps 2 or 3 percent of a green's total surface was adjusted. The only untouched green is No. 15.

"The players are going to be very pleased with the changes," McCormick said. "We anticipate the putting surfaces are a little bit faster than last year." And, he notes, "it makes the golf course more playable for our members and guests."

Changes to a course are not unusual. At Augusta National, home of the Masters, "they make changes to that site every year," McCormick said. "As the game continues to evolve, the golf courses have to evolve with it."

"Most every golf course will have tweaks to make things better," Dunagan said. "Players prefer faster greens, to a certain point. They're used to faster greens than we had last year. We expect faster green speeds, we expect to help with scoring and excitement."

The work only adds to the immediate standard of the Ritz-Carlton Golf Club, Dove Mountain.
"The course, it's electric," Dunagan said.

Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seventeen out of Eighteen?
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2010, 10:38:49 PM »
I played it in early December. I didn't see any signs of greens having been rebuilt, but I suppose if they did it last spring, it could have all grown in by the time I played there. The don't lack for warmth and sunshine, so if they put enough water on them...

My experience on those greens was the same as Bill's -- steep and difficult to read. I'm noticing a lot of missed 5-6 footers so far this week.

I was onsite last year, and the greens seem both faster and firmer from watching this week.  Because the slope is a little less pronounced on some holes, I think the pros keep expecting the default break away from the Mountain on straightish putts and are surprised when that doesn't happen.

The TV really flattens out the topographic changes at Dove Mountain (300-400-feet from the second green to the green on 15 which is the high point of the course) and the severity of slopes around many of the greens.
Next!

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seventeen out of Eighteen?
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2010, 09:47:12 AM »
Tom,
 Maybe if you doubled your design fee you too would get to re-vamp several of your courses?

Is there a designer working today who has had to re-do more of his courses, than Jack?

What a great value.  ;D
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Seventeen out of Eighteen?
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2010, 10:38:00 AM »
Buck:

Where exactly did you find that write-up online?  Dove Mountain p.r.?  Nicklaus' web site?  The Tour?

It is an unbelievably fantastic piece of spin. 

It's incredible.

They got it right.

Great novels like Moby Dick were completely rewritten by their authors and editors, too.

The only difference is they were rewritten BEFORE they were published.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seventeen out of Eighteen?
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2010, 11:02:53 AM »

Adjustments were made in the drainage structure, and the gravel "that's really the base of the green," McCormick said. "They were barely under the surface. They made the changes, and put the puzzle back together. The grain matched up, everything matched up.

[People thought all the greens were being rebuilt completely," Dunagan said. That was far from the case. In some instances, perhaps 2 or 3 percent of a green's total surface was adjusted. The only untouched green is No. 15.

"The players are going to be very pleased with the changes," McCormick said. "We anticipate the putting surfaces are a little bit faster than last year." And, he notes, "it makes the golf course more playable for our members and guests."


"Most every golf course will have tweaks to make things better," Dunagan said. "Players prefer faster greens, to a certain point. They're used to faster greens than we had last year. We expect faster green speeds, we expect to help with scoring and excitement."
]


A couple observations:
Would have liked to see how they altered the internal drainage as it sounds like they were USGA greens.  If they
 filled lows, that would be easier as only gravel would have to be added, but with only 4" to play with on cuts...

Whenever I have cut and patched sod on a green, the sod stretches upon cutting. So some has to be trimmed off.  A sod cutter goes in and out at an angle, so you have to trim tyhe ends. No big deal but it isn't as neat and tidy as they purport.

Mr. McCormick seems to equate flat greens as "more playable".

As Director of Match Play Championships, Mr. Dunagan, how does one "help with the scoring" by altering the course? Don't all contestants play the same course?

Coasting is a downhill process

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seventeen out of Eighteen?
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2010, 11:13:09 AM »
Come on Tom.  Even you must admit -  "it's good work if you can get it."
 ;)

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike Cirba

Re: Seventeen out of Eighteen?
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2010, 11:25:38 AM »
I heard on the XM broadcast that the greens had too much slope to get them up to the 12-13 :o stimp they wanted and still have enough pinnable locations.

I found this online

The PGA Tour wanted faster green speeds and more "cupable," or "pinable," locations on each green. It worked with the Ritz-Carlton Golf Club, developer David Mehl and designer Jack Nicklaus.

The work was "unbelievably fantastic," Dunagan agreed. "They got it right. There are absolutely no seams, no lines."

The work only adds to the immediate standard of the Ritz-Carlton Golf Club, Dove Mountain.

"The course, it's electric," Dunagan said.



It's Electric!

You can't see it
It's electric!
You gotta feel it
It's electric!
Ooh, it's shakin'
It's electric!

Jiggle-a-mesa-cara
She's a pumpin' like a matic
She's a movin' like electric
She sure got the boogie

You gotta know it
It's electric
Boogie woogie, woogie!
Now you can't hold it
It's electric
Boogie woogie, woogie!
But you know it's there,
Yeah here there everywhere

I've got to move,
I'm going on a party ride
I've got to groove, groove, groove,
And from this music I just can't hide.

Are you comin' with me?
Come let me take you on a party ride
And I'll teach you, teach you, teach you
I'll teach you the electric slide


Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seventeen out of Eighteen?
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2010, 03:29:44 PM »
Nick Faldo just said they touched about 30% of the green surface and flattened them out in order to get more pinnable spots and increase green speeds.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Seventeen out of Eighteen?
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2010, 06:55:13 PM »
If an agronomist had specified or approved a mix that didn't function as planned, he'd have been sued or publically flogged.
If a super had screwed the greens up, he'd have been gone in a heartbeat.
Any other architect would have been slammed for not understanding the modern professional game.

JN designs the greens knowing full well that the course is going to host the match play...he's hired because...well he was a great player and he understands how a "championship" course should play... but his greens require significant adjustment after one year. What’s his price to pay? He gets paid for the original work, and I'm guessing paid again to come in and fix what he couldn't get right the first time around.


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