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George Pazin

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Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« on: February 17, 2010, 03:45:11 PM »
Bryan has been on my radar for awhile, but when he put up the Barnbougle thread, I had to move him to the front of the line. :)

Much like several of our other thoughtful travelers, Bryan has been kind enough to share his experiences on some special courses of late.

Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole

Now is your chance to pepper Bryan with questions about his experiences and his view of life in general.

Have fun, play nice!

-----

On deck: gotta check

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Philippe Binette

JC Jones

Mike Clayton

Steve Curry

Troy Alderson

Full list:

GTK Participants
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

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Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2010, 04:14:23 PM »
Bryan,

Now that you've seen Barnbougle Dunes, do you recognize the futility of putting ponds and waterfalls on courses?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

George Pazin

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Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2010, 05:55:29 PM »
Standard questions:

What brought you to golf?

Golf course architecture?

This site?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2010, 03:43:08 AM »
Garland,

I try not to be as dogmatic as you about water on golf courses.  There is even at least one waterfall that I'm fond of (that Ian might have had a hand in).   ;D

Barnbougle is waterless and I liked it.  Most of the Scottish courses I admire have little or no water..  But, on the other hand Teeth of the Dog is one of my favorites and it has a lot of salty water.  Not to mention TPC Sawgrass or the Ocean Course at Kiawah or even Machrihanish.  My home course of the last 15 years has a lot of water.  I'm pretty much inured to water.  Maybe you should try aversion therapy.

Now southern FL courses and water ............   :(


Bryan Izatt

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Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2010, 03:55:09 AM »
Standard questions:

What brought you to golf?

Golf course architecture?

This site?

My parents brought me to golf when I was 12.  In those days memberships on the local Canadian equivalent of a muni ran about $35 a year (a 6 month Canadian golf year).  I've been addicted ever since.

Coming to architecture and this site sort of went hand in hand.  I tripped across this site some years ago while looking for information on places to play on our travels.  On the one hand, finding this site was great as a source of information and as instigation to learn more about and try to understand architecture.  It also fed my analytic desires.  And lead me to read architecture books recommended on here. 

On the other hand, it has also led to obsessive compulsive desires to look at deeds for famous Philadelphia courses that I've never seen and to debate with stubborn people who like to use green ink. 

On the other hand, it has enabled me to meet some very fine people and to play golf with them.

And, on the other hand, ............



 

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2010, 04:06:16 AM »
Bryan I think you must be amongst the top 10 most travelled golfers on this site! Very interested to hear your thoughts on the golfing cultures you've experienced and how they differ?

From your comments you also seem to have a more open mind than e.g. err... me!  You can't be categorized as someone who only sees’s merit in old courses.  Do you think as a group there is a bias on here that makes us blind to the merits of newer courses? Any thoughts on why?

On here we tend to refer to the USA as one homogenous golf culture, but is golf really that similar on east and west coasts and everywhere else?  

Compare and contrast with Canada?

Is your wife still just a holiday golfer?  Does it have anything to do with the courses abroad being more suitable for a high handicapper?  This is a type of golfer that doesn't get discussed much on here but I know a few people who love going away with friends and including a round of golf or two in the trip as the only time they play.

Have you played in Ireland, thoughts?

I hope these questions aren't to closed, feel free to share some of the impressions you've gained on your travels.


PS If you ever get the chance to play a round with Bryan do not pass it up, great guy!
Let's make GCA grate again!

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2010, 12:16:26 PM »
Tony,

You're too kind.

As I get on in life I'm fortunate enough to have enough time, money, health and an accommodating partner to be able to travel and golf.  But, on this site, I'd doubt I'm one of the more traveled.

I'm not sure about open minded, but I do enjoy all kinds of courses both old and modern.  What I don't enjoy is expensive courses.  When I first started posting here, I started a thread on current times being the second golden age of architecture, and generally got shot down for my troubles.  But I still believe it is true, especially for those of us not blessed by access to private American classic gems or classic GBI gems (because of distance).  Certainly I love the classic Scottish links courses the most, but I find almost their equal in modern courses such as Sawgrass, the Ocean course, Bandon Dunes, and Barnbougle Dunes. I am mystified by those that need to rank one course as better than another.  Modern or Classic, they're all good with me. 

As a Canadian, I'm not sure I should be trying to describe American golf culture.  I don't know that there is a culture based on geography, so much as defined by where you are on the social pecking order.  I have not played any American private courses (classic or not), but I would expect the culture to be quite different there from the culture at CCFAD's or from what the Americans call muni's, and different again for golf retreats like Bandon Dunes.  I doubt that I would be comfortable at a private American course.  I don't like to feel like an unwelcome interloper.  CCFAD's vary.  Some are comfortable; some are uncomfortably over the top.

I think too that on our side of the ocean there is probably a greater variety of people who play golf, not to be confused with golfers, than you have on your side of the ocean.  I think that affects the culture of the clubs over here.

Compare and contrast to Canada?  Hmmmm, sadly, I think in terms of golf culture we have pretty much emulated the American models.  We have private clubs (some of which I have played) which make me uncomfortable.  We have a plethora of CCFAD's and a lot of pay to play courses, not unlike the US.  I certainly prefer the GBI model to either ours or the American model. 

Marilyn plays some here in the summer.  She says she enjoys playing, but of course doesn't have my obsession.  She enjoys playing when we travel, but still is intimidated by playing with other people she sees as real golfers.  And, she is still of the mind that the highly rated courses I want to take her to are highly rated because they are really difficult. Maybe I shouldn't have taken her to PGA West early on.  She hasn't figured out architectural merit yet.   ;) 

I think that she often likes courses we play on our travels because they tend to be firm and fast at most places we go.  As a high handicapper she really likes the roll out in fast and firm conditions.  Links-like courses in many places provide that, and generally along with a lack of forced carries over water, make those kind of courses more enjoyable for her.  The course she disliked the most was Dornoch, the time we played with you and Bill Dow.  Nothing to do with you or Willie, of course.  Just too long, too much gorse and too deep bunkers.  She'd be a real poster girl for Melvin, though; she's never met a course that she doesn't want to walk and she never needs to know about yardages.

I've played a couple of courses in Ireland.  Missed playing RCD because the cruise we were on neglected to find out that the day we were there was Ladies day and the course wasn't accessible.  Ended up at Ardglass instead.  A great experience.  From my limited experience in Ireland, I preferred Scotland or England.  When we were in Ireland it was generally wet and the courses played slow.  Obviously, I got to the wrong courses.  Now if Buda were to go to Ireland on dates I was available, I might be tempted.

 


Ian Andrew

Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2010, 12:28:46 PM »
There is even at least one waterfall that I'm fond of (that Ian might have had a hand in).   ;D

Bryan,

This must be the one at Osprey Valley.
I worked on that course, but its mostly Doug's design.
I think the waterfall was Doug's idea.

The design is mostly by the contractor, who only did the waterfall, and he did a nice job.
For a waterfall...

I didn't care for the hole, because the waterfall, pond and creek does not fit in with the rest of the course.
I think the course is quite good through 15.

Ian Andrew

Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2010, 12:30:26 PM »
Bryan,

What are your favourite courses in Ontario?

Are you a fan of the work of Doug Carrick and Tom McBroom?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 12:36:37 PM by Ian Andrew »

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2010, 01:08:20 PM »
There is even at least one waterfall that I'm fond of (that Ian might have had a hand in).   ;D

Bryan,

This must be the one at Osprey Valley.
I worked on that course, but its mostly Doug's design.
I think the waterfall was Doug's idea.

The design is mostly by the contractor, who only did the waterfall, and he did a nice job.
For a waterfall...

I didn't care for the hole, because the waterfall, pond and creek does not fit in with the rest of the course.
I think the course is quite good through 15.


It was Osprey, of course.

As a waterfall ........................   I thought it was very aesthetically pleasing. 






Would you like the hole better if there were just a creek, or a bunker crossing it.  Or, do you think the large pond is out of character too?  There are many ponds on the course, at 1, 6, 7, 12, 13, 16 and 18 for instance.  Do you have issues with more of them, or just the one between 16 and 17?

I'm a bit surprised that you are not keen on 16 and 18?  What brings them down in your view?

It occurs to me that Garland would not like this course at all, but it is a fine course.

 

Ian Andrew

Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2010, 01:33:36 PM »
Bryan,

It's your interview and not mine.


Best Courses in Ontario?

Best Ontario course completely off the Golf Club Atlas radar?

Where in Ontario would you like to build a course?

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2010, 01:54:06 PM »
Ian,

Favorite courses.  When I moved to Toronto back in my teens, I spent a few years playing Annandale (where you may never have been) because it was the only place I could afford in the GTA.  It was a place of no merit.  Compared to there, anyplace else was a favorite.  I went from there to Cherry Downs as a junior member and thought it was great at the time.  I had a chance to play St George's a couple of times in the 60's and Scarborough as well.  They might well have been favorites if I'd had access and any ideas about architecture.  I also used to really like Whirlpool.  Even at that early stage I guess I had good taste in designers.

In current times, on the publicly accessible side where I have mostly played, my biggest favorites are all three courses at Osprey Valley.  I also like Eagles Nest (although I won't often pay the price).  I've been a member at St Andrews Valley for years, so it's been a favorite, although it has some really frustrating features after hundreds of plays.  I'm going to be joining Bond Head this year - I really like the North course, which probably puts me in the decided minority.  Many of the private courses might well be favorites, but without access that's just conjecture.

And, although it's not a favorite, I have played Ballantrae a number of times and think it is an interesting design on an average piece of property in a lousy location. 

I'm certainly a fan of Doug's work.  I fell in love with the Heathlands when it first opened and made the trek out there after work in Downtown Toronto once a week for years.  I think it was the first modern course that I played where I actually started to think about how the course was designed and how it played.  It's sad that Carrick isn't more widely recognized on here, or by golfers generally.  I really should do a photo tour on the Osprey courses. 

Tom McBroom has certainly done some fine work, but I guess I'm less of a fan.  Not sure why.  I liked National Pines.  Le Geant was interesting.  Crowbush was good.  St Kitts was a cut above most Caribbean courses.  But, others such as Usher's Creek, Glencairn, and King's Riding, not so much.

Niall C

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Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2010, 02:48:36 PM »
Bryan

I'll get the question in before Anthony posts, have you ever played Cruden Bay ? Ever had your face licked ?

Actually, don't bother to answer that second question.

I know you have been over to Scotland on quite a few occasions, any courses which you think don't get the recognition that they deserve and any that you think are perhaps over rated ?

Apart from eating haggis at Glasgow Gailes whats the most foolhardy thing you have ever done on one of your golf trips ?

Niall

Will MacEwen

Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2010, 02:59:36 PM »
Bryan,

Ever get up into the far east of Ontario and play Cornwall or Brockville G&C?  I grew up near them, but never made it on to either course for one reason or another. 

Bill_McBride

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Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2010, 03:03:53 PM »
Bryan (and the other Canadians), I played a course outside Toronto in around 1993 - I remember because the Blue Jays were in the World Series - that was most likely west of downtown.  I've been trying to remember the name for years with no success.

The course was essentially played on two levels.  The first three or four holes were on the upper level and then you played your tee shot off the upper level down an escarpment to the lower level on a really good par 4.  Toward the end of the round you wound your way back up to the clubhouse.  I remember the par 5 #17 very clearly because it was around dusk and a large squadron of geese landed in the pond right in the front of the green.

Any idea where I was playing?  It was the only golf I've played in Canada east of Vancouver and I liked the course a lot.  

Jason Topp

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Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2010, 03:26:06 PM »

Any idea where I was playing?    

I have never added a quotation to the bottom of my posts but that one would be a strong candidate (without context of course). 


Bryan - were you and I foursome partners?  I cannot remember which round of the BUDA we played together but I believe it was that round.  That round was an epiphany for me.  I hit a horrible shot into a ditch on the 2nd hole and for a moment felt bad about it.  Once I saw my partner trying to hit from the predicament I created I enjoyed the fact I did not have to hit that shot.  After that I relaxed and really had a great time.

Do you like or just tolerate Florida golf? 

George Pazin

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Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2010, 04:26:18 PM »
As a waterfall ........................   I thought it was very aesthetically pleasing. 




Here's my waterfall story:

I attended the Mario Lemieux Celebrity Invitational quite a few years ago (just over 10, I think), which was held at Nevillewood, a Jack Nicklaus signature course. I was there with a friend who's a pretty good golfer (shoots in the mid to high 70s) who grew up in Oakmont. He worked there as a caddy and on the grounds crew for the 94 Open, played it a bunch of times (has a best of 75). We were walking up the 18th, which has a waterfall feature similar to the one in the photo. My friend gazed wistfully at the waterfall, turned to me and said, Why don't I get to play courses like this?

I didn't punch him, but I thought about it... :)

Bryan, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised by the atmosphere at many private clubs in the US. Everyone I know who has played Pine Valley raves about the course, but also about how wonderful the golf experience is, as it is very much a golf club, not an elitist club. I haven't been lucky enough to play PV, but I have played a few other special courses, and was always made to feel very much at home. And believe me when I say I'm a regular guy, not at all a wealthy elitist.

I can't remember reading it, so I'll ask:

Where else did you play in Australia? Did your wife join you playing at Barnbougle? I'm wondering what my wife will do when I drag her down there...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jed Rammell

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Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2010, 04:32:30 PM »
Bryan - Any courses in particular you didn't care for the first time and have grown to love (or appreciate)?

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2010, 07:19:03 PM »
Bryan,

It's your interview and not mine.


Best Courses in Ontario?

Best Ontario course completely off the Golf Club Atlas radar?

Where in Ontario would you like to build a course?


Fair enough.  When I get around to posting a tour of the course, maybe you can weigh in.

Best Ontario Course off the GCA radar?

With you and Rob and Jeff on GCA, I doubt that there are any worthwhile courses in Ontario that are off the radar.  Osprey is off of most people's radar, given the business that they get, but it's on your list of best in Canada in your "In My Opinion" piece, so it's not off our radar.  One that I like, at least the last 12 holes, that doesn't seem to get much profile is Lochness Links down near Welland, but I'm sure you and others have seen it.  Tarandowah is interesting, but Rob's written that one up. 

Where in Ontario would I build?

I'd just like to move Osprey closer, but still have very few people who actually go there.  On the other hand there is this interesting piece of property on Highway 9 near Orangeville.  High and dry rolling terrain with some nice knobby hills.  Probably too far out to be economically feasible, but what the heck, if you have a sugar daddy with money and you want to design the course I'll tell you where the land is.  Or, maybe we could persuade Ontario to build a links course in Sandbanks Provincial Park.  It'd be nice to have a real links course in the province.

 

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2010, 07:42:25 PM »
Bryan

I'll get the question in before Anthony posts, have you ever played Cruden Bay ? Ever had your face licked ?

Actually, don't bother to answer that second question.

I know you have been over to Scotland on quite a few occasions, any courses which you think don't get the recognition that they deserve and any that you think are perhaps over rated ?

Apart from eating haggis at Glasgow Gailes whats the most foolhardy thing you have ever done on one of your golf trips ?

Niall


Niall,

Yes, I've played Cruden Bay a number of times.  It remains a favorite in Scotland, but not quite on the pedestal that Anthony places it on.  Given the Tiger talk going on today I'm not sure how to take the face licked part of the question.   :o   If you mean, has the course beaten me, the easy answer is yes.  A couple of years ago on the way to the Buda Cup, I entered the Hawklaw Tankard (as did a number of others on here).  It was a wee bit breezy that day.  My score was not a pretty sight.

I really liked Royal Aberdeen, but it doesn't get much attention here.  Others like Crail, Elie and Lundin Links, and your own Glasgow Gailes don't get too much attention except for Mark and Rich and you beating the drums.  Saunton, which is in England, of course, doesn't get much attention.  Or, your previous course at Silloth on Solway.

I can't remember walking away from any course there thinking that it was over-rated.  I walked away from Castle Stuart and thought it was over-priced, but that's a different matter.

Haggis, mmmmmm, I loved the haggis.  As long as a heart attack doesn't follow from it.  Foolhardy was the trip last summer to Scotland.  Fly into Manchester to Silloth, North Berwick, St Andrews, Cruden Bay, Moray Old, Dornoch x 2 and Glasgow Gailes in 8 days.  Crazy driving that distance, but loved all the courses and got to play with you and Mark Pearce.

Also foolhardy was once paying almost a $1000 for my wife, son and I to play Dorado Beach off of a cruise ship.


Bryan Izatt

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Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2010, 12:17:04 AM »
Bryan,

Ever get up into the far east of Ontario and play Cornwall or Brockville G&C?  I grew up near them, but never made it on to either course for one reason or another. 


No, sorry, haven't played either.


Bryan Izatt

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Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2010, 12:23:54 AM »
Bryan (and the other Canadians), I played a course outside Toronto in around 1993 - I remember because the Blue Jays were in the World Series - that was most likely west of downtown.  I've been trying to remember the name for years with no success.

The course was essentially played on two levels.  The first three or four holes were on the upper level and then you played your tee shot off the upper level down an escarpment to the lower level on a really good par 4.  Toward the end of the round you wound your way back up to the clubhouse.  I remember the par 5 #17 very clearly because it was around dusk and a large squadron of geese landed in the pond right in the front of the green.

Any idea where I was playing?  It was the only golf I've played in Canada east of Vancouver and I liked the course a lot.  


Bill,

Any more clues?  Was it private?  Was it further west than the airport? Near the lake, or further north?  There's holes like the par 4 and the par 5 you describe at Glen Abbey where the Canadian Open has been a good number of times, but the hole numbers are different than you've mentioned.

 

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2010, 12:43:49 AM »

Any idea where I was playing?    

I have never added a quotation to the bottom of my posts but that one would be a strong candidate (without context of course). 


Bryan - were you and I foursome partners?  I cannot remember which round of the BUDA we played together but I believe it was that round.  That round was an epiphany for me.  I hit a horrible shot into a ditch on the 2nd hole and for a moment felt bad about it.  Once I saw my partner trying to hit from the predicament I created I enjoyed the fact I did not have to hit that shot.  After that I relaxed and really had a great time.

Do you like or just tolerate Florida golf? 


Yes, we were foursomes partners at Lundin Links.  I remember the trench.  I think I put you in jail off the tee a hole or two later.  Good fun.  What I remember better of that round was a par 4 after the turn where I drove it way right and gave you a shot into the green over a nasty bunker, into which you dropped the approach.  As I recall, I was left with my right foot in the bunker and my left knee on top of the sod wall from where I hit a supremely lucky bunker shot into the hole for an unlikely birdie.  One up for the team.  Great fun.

Florida golf is too generic a term.  There are some courses I tolerate, especially near Naples and Ft Myers where I'll be next week.  Others like Venetian, Sawgrass, Old Corkscrew, Sugarloaf Mountain, Victoria Hills, Deltona Club, Copperhead, and Pine Barrens I like.  They'd be good anywhere.



Bryan Izatt

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Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2010, 01:04:22 AM »

....................................



...................................

I can't remember reading it, so I'll ask:

Where else did you play in Australia? Did your wife join you playing at Barnbougle? I'm wondering what my wife will do when I drag her down there...


George,

Point taken about private clubs.  It was unfair to generalize.  If you get an invite to PV, let me know, and we can test out this hypothesis together.   ;D

In order, I played the Hyatt course at Coolum (north of Brisbane), The Coast which is next door to NSW, St Andrews Beach,  Moonah Links Open Course, 13th Beach, and Barnbougle Dunes twice.  With a lot of driving, sight seeing and hiking in between.  Marilyn played all the courses.  She's not a big fan of high winds so probably didn't enjoy BD as much as I did.

I hope your wife plays at BD.  There's not really anything else of a touristy nature in the area.  Beach walks looked like they'd be nice.  There certainly seemed to be a lot of family members around at dinner time who didn't look like they were on the course during the day.  But, I have no idea what they did in the daytime.  You could IM Peter Wood; he could probably advise you about what else there is to do there. It's a beautiful part of the world there and if you like national parks there are some good ones not too far away for before or after you're at BD.  If you want more advice let me know by IM.


Bryan Izatt

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Re: Starting Thurs., 2/18/10 - Get To Know Bryan Izatt
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2010, 01:10:42 AM »
Bryan - Any courses in particular you didn't care for the first time and have grown to love (or appreciate)?

Jed,

Interesting question.  Off the top, I can't think of one.  There are so many courses to play, I guess if I don't like a course, I just don't go back.  There are some I appreciate, but didn't care for, but it primarily had to do with price/value.  Believe it or not Pebble Beach and Castle Stuart fall into this category.  I suspect that if the price was more in line with my idea of value, I'd go back and love each.