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Hidden Gem

El Caballero CC - Host of LPGA Event
« on: April 07, 2002, 05:57:32 PM »
I tuned in to see the Ladies play this after; due to my desire to catch a glimpse of Laura Diaz, one of a few on that tour that I would commit sin with…..  

After a few holes, my interest turned to this spectacular looking course, which held this event.  I have played Los Cabelleros, (about an hour NW of Phoenix) which I enjoyed much, but have never heard of El Cabellero CC in Tarzana, CA.

It appeared to be a great “shotmakers” course. From what I could see on the tube, you could not attack pins without paying the consequences. Normally, TV does not give credence to the actual slopes and elevation changes that exist on most courses, but that did not appear to be the case here.

I tuned in around #12, which was a short iron approach off a downhill lie. Unless, you could hit it straight into the stratosphere, it appeared difficult to carry the front bunker and get it close.

The greens were very sloped and it was not often that you had a straight putt.
The greens also appeared to be a bit ragged, like they were not cut in a couple of days. I would have loved to have seen them cropped a bit lower. Even then, downhill putts seemed a challenge.

That aside, I found the designer to be a relatively unknown(?) by the name of William H. Johnson. (Course built in 1957) He has collaborated on many courses with a William F. Bell who I am also not familiar.

Has anyone played this club, and is it as good as it appeared?  Have you played any other courses by this designer and/or Mr. Bell?  What are their best efforts?

Is this a “sleeper” course, or does it have some limitations that would preclude it from more notoriety?  How does it compare with other LA area courses excluding the George Thomas designs?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: El Caballero CC - Host of LPGA Event
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2002, 08:25:30 PM »
Mr. Hidden Gem...I assume Mr. with the comments about Laura although who knows these days. ;)

Calm down a bit about El Caballero CC.  One of decent layouts and clubs in Southern California.  Nothing to go out of the way to play.  Jewish club with great food.  I think they put Robert Trent Jones on their scorecards as the designer.  There have many to visit the site.  For the really good El Caballero, see Daniel Wexler's book, a George Thomas design, which unfortunately is no longer in existence.  The problem for me is this course has 6 really good holes.  It has about 5 redundant holes, par 4's 375 to 400 in length, running north to south or south to north, elevated tees hitting to a down slope, so that the second shot is a short iron, downhill lie, hitting to a green perched above you.  The par 3's are not memorable.  The best holes are the ones heading to the clubhouse.  You are in the "Valley", be ready for smog and 90 degrees in the summer.  I think you saw thick poa annua greens which roll very well.  Perhaps on TV they looked shaggy, but I suspect the players were pleased.  I played there 1 1/2 month ago and the greens were very quick.  I hope they didn't slow them down for the tourney.  Looking at the scores, they were high, and I think this was a tougher than usual course for the LPGA.  I trust it also accounted for the reason the best players rose to the top.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Hidden Gem

Re: El Caballero CC - Host of LPGA Event
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2002, 04:36:56 AM »
Lynn -

Thank you for your comments. To clarify, it is MR! (LOL) Yes, I saw too that RTJ was involved in the ‘redesign’, but I was wondering to what extent?  On TV, I only had chance to see the back nine, and as per previous post, looked strategic, yet play a bit short, for the LPGA’s elite.

I believe Amy Alcott, the tournament’s host commented that the greens were slowed down a bit from the speed at which the members play everyday. I have a big problem with that one!  The fact that the best (Annika, Se Ri, Laura) were at the top, did show that the course had some teeth? It was good to see them have to think instead of just bombing it straight, followed by short approaches to pins all day. That is boring!

So, based on your review, assuming that William Johnson was responsible for most of the strategy with layout and green contouring, has he built anything of significance?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: El Caballero CC - Host of LPGA Event
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2002, 08:12:22 AM »
The member of Riviera with whom I played at Riv a few years ago likes El Cab quite a bit and he plays all of THE best courses around.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: El Caballero CC - Host of LPGA Event
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2002, 08:26:59 AM »
El Cab is less than a mile from where I went to high school... but given the former is a Jewish club and the latter is a Catholic school, our paths didn't cross that much!  That being said, I did play it in tournaments several times and we used to sneak on there quite a bit, mostly out of spite.   ;)

From what I saw, it hasn't changed much in the 20 years since I've been there.

And my assessment is spot-on with Lynn's.  Good course, but nothing to get all hot and bothered about, at least not any more than you will be if you play there in the summer.

Fun to see the old semi-stomping grounds on TV, anyway!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

DMoriarty

Re: El Caballero CC - Host of LPGA Event
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2002, 01:13:43 PM »
Hidden Gem,

William F. Bell is better known as Billy Bell, Jr.  His father, William P. Bell collaborated with George Thomas, constructing (I think) LA, Riviera, Stanford and Ojai.  Some give Billy Bell, Sr. much of the credit for the great original bunkers at these courses.  He also is designed on his own (Brookside). (Billy Bell, Sr. is discussed in the Geoff Shackelford Interview, Part 2. )

Billy Bell, Jr. designed a number of courses in Southern California, including Sandpiper, Industry Hills, and Torrey Pines (with his father?).  I am sure that Tommy Naccarato or one of the Shackelfords can tell  you much more about the Bells if you are interested.

As for El Cab, it is known around L.A. as a difficult course, but is not quite as well respected as the big three-- some put in on the same tier as Wilshire.   I have only played it once and enjoyed it.  Generally good green complexes with tight, demanding greenside bunkering.  A few really silly greenside concrete ponds.  Many of the fairways are lined with soldier rows of mature trees to seperate adjacent fairways.  Unfortunately, the trees take many interesting undulations and angles out of play.  

Also, the course seems to have bought into the notion that tall rough and narrow fairways make for interesting golf.  The course does offer some strategy (as you note), but I think it would be be more interesting if some trees were cut and some roughs were mowed to give the golfer some more options.  I am sure that most of their membership disagrees with me.  

While I wouldn't plan a vacation around playing El Cab.  I would certainly drive over Sepulveda Pass into the Valley to play it, even in the summer.
  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: El Caballero CC - Host of LPGA Event
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2002, 01:18:02 PM »

Quote

Well said, Moriarty (jeez I love typing your name - big Sherlock Holmes fan here).  Of course the same goes for me as a former valley resident - I would indeed drive over the other way any time to play Wilshire!

Putting those on the same "tier" seems correct to me - so say a cut below LACC and Riviera.

TH

ps - look for a message from me re Barona gig...

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: El Caballero CC - Host of LPGA Event
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2013, 06:09:55 PM »
A few pictures from a May, 2013 visit...






Very uphill par-5 1st:




Approach to the 2nd... the best green site on the course:




220 yard par-3 4th.  Green is far more difficult than it looks:




Par-3 8th:




Par-4 9th:




Par-3 10th:




Approach to the very quirky 14th.




The 16th is the best par-3 on the course, with a wild, spined green:




The approach to the 17th is scary, especially if from the left / to a left pin.  Even from the fairway, the rise in the green from the front to the rear is obvious:




18 is a difficult par-4:



Joe Perches

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: El Caballero CC - Host of LPGA Event
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2013, 07:50:40 PM »
What is your opinion of the centerline tree on 15 Mark?

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: El Caballero CC - Host of LPGA Event
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2013, 08:17:25 PM »
What is your opinion of the centerline tree on 15 Mark?

Hate it.  Ditto the tree on 11.  Not enough width in either case to justify the trees.  You?

Joe Perches

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: El Caballero CC - Host of LPGA Event
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2013, 08:37:12 PM »
What is your opinion of the centerline tree on 15 Mark?

Hate it.  Ditto the tree on 11.  Not enough width in either case to justify the trees.  You?

My recollection is the hole is  too narrow with not enough room right of the tree.
Left was always just a lucky play if you got it through there.

I was always somewhere around or below the silly tree for my second shot.
I haven't played there in many years so I don't know what it's like now.

What's your opinion of the best play off the tee?
Just fly a ball at the tree and hope?

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: El Caballero CC - Host of LPGA Event
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2013, 08:43:50 PM »
Joe, I think it's ~210 uphill to the tree from the back tees.  Obviously a bit less from the forward tees.  The play is clearly over the tree for those that can get by it, and for those that can't, well, I think it's hit and hope.

The frustrating part is the green is pretty fascinating, and its interest completely negated if the golfer is hitting some pitch out from a centreline tree.

The only good news is that the tree recently died and the current tree on 15 is far, far smaller than the previous one!

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: El Caballero CC - Host of LPGA Event
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2013, 01:31:26 AM »
The only good news is that the tree recently died and the current tree on 15 is far, far smaller than the previous one!

Natural death or homicide?

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