[Tommy Williamsen]

Enlarging on their them of best classic and best modern, Golf Week Came out with theeir top 50 classic and top forty modern.  Here is the classic list.

Golfweek’s Best: GB&I Classic Courses (Before 1960)
Rank. Course Name
Location – Opened
Architects
Avg. Rating
1. Royal County Down
Newcastle, Northern Ireland,1889
Old Tom Morris
9.07
2. St. Andrews (Old)
St. Andrews, Scotland, 1400
Unknown
8.69
3. Royal Portrush
Portrush, Northern Ireland, 1888
Harry S. Colt
8.56
4. Muirfield    Gullane
Scotland, 1892
Old Tom Morris
8.36
5. Ballybunion (Old)
Ballybunion, Ireland, 1893
Tom Simpson, P. Murphy
8.31
6. Turnberry (Ailsa)
Turnberry, Scotland, 1949
Mackenzie Ross
8.20
7. Royal Birkdale
Southport, England, 1889
George Lowe, F.G. Hawtree, J.H. Taylor
8.17
8. Royal Dornoch
Dornoch, Scotland, 1877
Old Tom Morris, John Sutherland, George Duncan
8.10
9. Woodhall Spa (Hotchkin)
Woodhall Spa, England, 1896
S.V. Hotchkin
8.09
10. Sunningdale (Old)
Sunningdale, England, 1900
Harry S. Colt, Willie Park Jr.
7.94
11. Carnoustie (Championship)
Carnoustie, Scotland, 1839
Allan Robertson, Old Tom Morris, James Braid
7.85
12. Royal St. George’s
Sandwich, England, 1887
Laidlaw Purves
7.84
13. Lahinch
Lahinch, Ireland,1892
Old Tom Morris, Alister MacKenzie
7.82
14. North Berwick
North Berwick, Scotland, 1832
David Strath
7.76
15. Ganton
Scarborough, England, 1893
Harry S. Colt, James Braid, Tom Dunn, Harry Vardon
7.75
16. Royal Troon (Championship)
Troon, Scotland, 1878
Willie Fernie
7.69
17. Cruden Bay
Cruden Bay, Scotland, 1899
Tom Simpson
7.61
18. Royal Lytham & St. Annes
Lytham, England, 1886
George Lowe, Herbert Fowler
7.53
19. Rye
Rye, England, 1894
Harry S. Colt
7.45
20. Machrihanish
Campbletown, Scotland, 1876
Old Tom Morris
7.37
21. Portmarnock (Old)
Portmarnock, Ireland, 1894
George Ross, W.C. Pickeman
7.36
22. St. George’s Hill
Weybridge, England, 1912
Harry S. Colt
7.35
23. Wallasey
Wallasey, England, 1891
Old Tom Morris, J. Braid, F.G. Hawtree, J.H. Taylor, D. Steel
7.33
24. Royal Aberdeen
Aberdeen, Scotland, 1800
James Braid, Tom Simpson
7.29
25. Walton Heath (Old)
Tadworth, England, 1903
Herbert Fowler
7.29
26. Swinley Forest
Ascot, England, 1909
Harry S. Colt
7.29
27. Royal Liverpool (Hoylake)
Hoylake, England, 1869
Old Tom Morris, Robert Chambers
7.25
28. Royal Porthcawl
Porthcawl, Wales, 1891
Charles Gibson
7.25
29. Western Gailes
Troon, Scotland, 1897
Fred Morris
7.17
30. Royal West Norfolk
Brancaster, England, 1892
Holcombe Ingleby
7.10
31. Sunningdale (New)
Sunningdale, England, 1922
Harry S. Colt
7.07
32. Wentworth (West)
Virginia Water, England, 1924
Harry S. Colt
7.04
33. Gleneagles (King’s)
Auchterarder, Scotland, 1919
James Braid
7.00
34. Royal North Devon (Westward Ho!)
Bideford, England, 1864
Old Tom Morris, Herbert Fowler
7.00
35. Prestwick
Prestwick, Scotland, 1851
Old Tom Morris
6.88
36. Royal Cinque Ports
Deal, England, 1892
James Braid
6.78
37. Addington
Croydon, England, 1912
J.F. Abercromby
6.75
38. Portstewart (The Strand)
Portstewart, Northern Ireland, 1908
A. Gow, Des Giffin
6.73
39. St. Enodoc
Wadebridge, England, 1890
James Braid
6.70
40. County Louth (Baltray)
Baltray, Ireland, 1892
Tom Simpson
6.68
41. Nairn
Nairn, Scotland, 1887
Old Tom Morris, James Braid, Tom Simpson
6.66
42. Alwoodley
Leeds, England, 1907
Alister MacKenzie
6.64
43. St. Andrews (New)
St. Andrews, Scotland, 1895
Old Tom Morris
6.63
44. The Island Golf Club
County Dublin, Ireland, 1890
Fred Hawtree, Eddie Hackett
6.57
45. County Sligo
County Sligo, Ireland, 1931
Harry S. Colt
6.53
46. Wentworth (East)
Virginia Water, England, 1924
Harry S. Colt
6.50
47. West Hill
Brookwood, England, 1907
Willie Park Jr., Cuthbert Butchart
6.50
48. Ferndown (Old)
Ferndown, England, 1921
Harold Hinton
6.50
49. Nefyn
Gwynedd, Wales, 1907
James Braid, J.H. Taylor
6.50
50. The Berkshire (Red)
Ascot, England, 1928
Herbert Fowler
6.50
GB&I Modern Courses

[Mark Pearce]

Royal St George's in 12th, behind Carnoustie?

North Berwick ahead of Ganton?

Tells me all I need to know about these rankings.

[Scott Warren]

RSG is significantly more than borderline better than North Berwick, IMO, as much as I loved North Berwick.

And St Enodoc is no chance a better course than Baltray.

Unless view counts for 30% of the mark, in which case both those examples make a lot of sense.

[Kevin Pallier]

Scott

At least Turnberry isnt at No.1 

[Sean_A]

The list finishes in wonky style.  Nevyn (this must be some sort of early April Fools joke), Ferdown & Westhill?  Westward Ho! - huh? 

Where the heck is Formby? 

I am also surprised to see Wallasey make the list.  It is one of those constant under-achievers on the Golf Monthly (or whatever its called) lists. 

Ciao

[Niall C]

No Silloth on Solway ? Someones having a laugh. More to the point no Gullane N. 3 ? 

Niall

[Melvyn Morrow]

Yet again these lists prove their real worth. Why do we keep bothering because they are as applicable as our individual taste in women.

I must say that there are many courses that I have enjoyed for various reasons but I will not make a list of my top 10 because it depends upon so many variables. To say one course is better that another would IMHO require identical conditions on each course including my own frame of mind.

These are totally pointless exercises that will always excite the reader into some sort of response so why do we keep bothering? What has it to do with GCA, it’s a list based upon a crude form of proportional representation

As for Hoylake that was not Old Tom but his brother George, also North Berwick West was by Old Tom & Strath; also it was not Colt in 1888 at Portrush, plus I see Tom Simpson gets the credit for Cruden Bay 1899 & Ballybunion 1893, Lahinch in 1892 was Shaw, in fact the whole list of dates and architects is somewhat incorrect showing how much interest was taken in compiling the list in the first place.

Why do you guys keep this madness of lists going, they are worthless, totally worthless IMHO.

Melvyn

[Mac Plumart]

Melvyn...

I think you made a great analogy with the taste in women comment.  The courses and their ranking on the list are subjective at best.

Nevertheless, I enjoy reading them...but I would like more information to be contained in the rankings.  For instance, RCD scores a 9.07.  Why?  I would like to see some detail on its good and bad points, information on the greens, the par 3's, 4', 5's etc.  And I would like to see this information for all the courses on the list.  Then I could read the data and see what biases are inherent and adjust it for my taste.  Much like you could do for a list ranking most beautiful women, if you saw pictures of them...maybe the rater likes blondes and ranks them too high for my taste.  But if I saw the detail/pictures, I could use his list but adjust it.

Furthermore, I REALLY like what Tom Doak did in The Confidential Guide and Anatomy of a Golf Course.  He has the Gazetter and Appendicies that detail what courses need to be studied for their greens, what are the top ten courses for characterisitic X, y, and Z.  That is useful and interesting to me.

Lastly, on the lists...I love looking at old lists (like the 1930ish list on this site) compared to Doak's stuff, compared to the new lists, and see which courses have stood the test of time and intense criticism.  Those have to be worth studying.

Just my 2 cents...but in general I agree with you on your overall point.  I just think you can derive value from the lists, if you work at it.

[Mark Pearce]

On the question of attribution, Muirfield's an interesting one....

[Tommy Williamsen]

I've played 35 on the list and have a few questions about the list. 

First, Sean I think you make some good points but left off two you could have made.  I went out of my way to play Nefyn and District.  I could not have been any more let down.  Even the holes on the point aren't all that good.  The other holes just are forgetable.  Formby certainly belongs on the list as do Pennard and Burnham & Berrow.  I too was surprised by Royal North Devon.  I love the plaace and have an overseas membership, but it has too many weak holes to be so far up the list.  Can Portstewart really be a classic course.? Half of the course is new.  I was happy to see that Wentworth West was ranked higher.  I have long thought it rests on its international reputation more than architectural merit.

The top 15 seem spot on give or take a spot or two, although I'm not quite sure why Lahinch is so well respected though.
Scott I'd rather play St. Enodoc over Baltray 7 times to 3. 
Neil, Gullane #3. Why would that make the list?

There are a couple of others that might be candidates.  Beau Desert, and Prestbury come to mind.  I was surprised to see Royal St. David missing.  I wouldn't necessarily put it on the lise, but it usually does well in the rankings.

Melvyn, People have discussed the merits of one course over against another way before any rankings came out. We do it with all kinds of things.  We compare all kinds of things.  In just normal conversation someone may say, "have you ever eaten at xxx?  Their crab cakes are the best in Maryland."  I find it interesting to see which courses another person thinks is great especially if I disagree.  It makes me rethink my position.

I don't know anything about West Hill.  What's the story.

[Mark Chaplin]

Tommy - West Hill is often considered to be the weakest of the 3Ws and Woking and Worplesdon are no where to be seen.

[Sean_A]

I've played 35 on the list and have a few questions about the list. 

First, Sean I think you make some good points but left off two you could have made.  I went out of my way to play Nefyn and District.  I could not have been any more let down.  Even the holes on the point aren't all that good.  The other holes just are forgetable.  Formby certainly belongs on the list as do Pennard and Burnham & Berrow.  I too was surprised by Royal North Devon.  I love the plaace and have an overseas membership, but it has too many weak holes to be so far up the list.  Can Portstewart really be a classic course.? Half of the course is new.  I was happy to see that Wentworth West was ranked higher.  I have long thought it rests on its international reputation more than architectural merit.

The top 15 seem spot on give or take a spot or two, although I'm not quite sure why Lahinch is so well respected though.
Scott I'd rather play St. Enodoc over Baltray 7 times to 3. 
Neil, Gullane #3. Why would that make the list?

There are a couple of others that might be candidates.  Beau Desert, and Prestbury come to mind.  I was surprised to see Royal St. David missing.  I wouldn't necessarily put it on the lise, but it usually does well in the rankings.

Melvyn, People have discussed the merits of one course over against another way before any rankings came out. We do it with all kinds of things.  We compare all kinds of things.  In just normal conversation someone may say, "have you ever eaten at xxx?  Their crab cakes are the best in Maryland."  I find it interesting to see which courses another person thinks is great especially if I disagree.  It makes me rethink my position.

I don't know anything about West Hill.  What's the story.

Tommy

Pennard and Woking would certainly make any list I did of the top 50 in GB&I, but it is absolutely no surprise not see it listed here.  For me Burnham and Beau Desert should certainly be strongly considered, though again, it is no surprise Beau isn't thought of.  Two others not mentioned which should have a shout are Notts and Little Aston and in a way I am surprised they are not on the list. 

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

That is quite a weird list. Looks like one persons opinion rather than a collective. I would have thought only a very few people could ever have RND above Saunton, Burnham, to many it wont make the top 200. If you go for the old fashioned quirky take then its no way better Prestwick. St Andrews New as well...

[James Boon]

I quite like lists but this is a weird list indeed! I would love to know the background on the people who came up with this one and how they scored these courses?

Cheers,

James

[Mark_Rowlinson]

It just goes to show that my oft-made assertion that the top 50 pretty much pick themselves and after that there are 200 courses in with a shout of the next 50 is wrong.

[Jim McCann]

Mark,

You're not far off the mark with your assertion.

I'd suggest 45 of the top 50 pick themselves in ANY
country that has enough courses to construct a Top
100, leaving a dozen or so courses to pick the remaining
five from to complete the fifty.

Then you have At LEAST another 100 worthies vying for
positions 51 to 100...

[Mike Cirba]

Many of these courses have had many hands touch them.

For instance, would someone like to try a attribution chronicle of North Berwick West Links, citing those responsible (and the years) for major additions/changes that get us from inception to what the course is today?

I believe this exists somewhere here prior, but can't find it at the moment.   All help is most appreciated.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()