Cliffs developers seek $60M-$100M from club members

[Michael Whitaker]

Tiger Woods' "infidelities" and the economic slump has put a lot of hurt on The Cliffs Communities. Like a lot of real estate developments, they need capital and have decided, it seems, to take matters into their own hands.

Interesting article from the Asheville Citizen-Times:
http://www.citizen-times.com/article/20100210/NEWS01/302100027/1009

[Mike Sweeney]

Related but different, Magic Mountain in Vermont is trying to raise $3.0 mm in $3000 units from their customer base:

http://www.magicmtn.com/static_page.php?id=41

I skied there a few times years ago, and it is really great little mountain when they have snow.

[Tom_Doak]

Heck, Tiger could put up all the money himself, if he is that excited about the course's prospects for success.

[Garland Bayley]

Heck, Tiger could put up all the money himself, if he is that excited about the course's prospects for success.

Tom,

I like the way you think!
 

[Bruce Katona]

Rule #1 of Real Estate Developemnt - use OPM (other people's money).
Rule #2 - always refer to Rule #1.

[Richard Choi]

Are they really serious about this? The owners are probably under 20% to 50% as is, and the developers want those people to double down? Wow.

[Wade Whitehead]

They wanted Tiger's first U.S. design and they got it.

WW

[Tom_Doak]

wwhitehead:

I don't think it's "Tiger's first U.S. design" unless it actually gets built.

[PThomas]

what a freaking joke...if those people are dumb enough to pitch in for that, i have some land in Florida i'd like to sell them

[john_stiles]

Wonder if the really wealthy will decide to keep their cash ?    Betcha a buck they do.

Let's see,  realistically, I suppose most of present home owners will not be able to sell their house for maybe 5 years  to recoup their investment or maybe make some money.   You would really have to be flush to pump more in.  

The olde double down as mentioned above is pretty scary.

[Mike_Young]

Jim Anthony , the developer at the cliffs is one of those I would bet on...he is a straight-up class guy and he evens says in the article it was some of his home owners that came up with the idea.....the guy plays straight....so straight I was surprised he would keep TW. 

[David Wigler]

I know it is not directly related but the Cliffs at Keowee Falls is without question one of the top 100 modern courses in the country and the 4th hole is one of the best 18 holes in all of the United States.  It is that good.  This course is easily in my top five Nicklaus courses and because it is truly in the middle of nowhere, will never get the respect it deserves.  Put this course in North Bend Oregon, the Monterrey Peninsula, Long Island, Chicago, or somewhere like that and it is a top 50 and has no worries at all.  Put it 2 1/2 hours from the nearest major airport and 40 minutes from Clemson, which is hardly a big town, and you have a financial struggle.

[Scott Henderson]

I think this just highlights what was going on with the "bubble" economy that we were experiencing until recently.  Now the developers are trying to save their own bacon.  When the Cliffs was first announced I wondered how a development so far from a major population center was going to work out - and I still do.

[Tim Gavrich]

I know it is not directly related but the Cliffs at Keowee Falls is without question one of the top 100 modern courses in the country and the 4th hole is one of the best 18 holes in all of the United States.  It is that good.  This course is easily in my top five Nicklaus courses and because it is truly in the middle of nowhere, will never get the respect it deserves.  Put this course in North Bend Oregon, the Monterrey Peninsula, Long Island, Chicago, or somewhere like that and it is a top 50 and has no worries at all.  Put it 2 1/2 hours from the nearest major airport and 40 minutes from Clemson, which is hardly a big town, and you have a financial struggle.

David--

The 4th hole is that long par 4 to the sort of skyline green, isn't it?  I've played only the front nine, but I really enjoyed it.  I recall the downhill Redan-type 7th hole as the one that really stood out to me.  The 8th and 9th were pretty cool holes too.

[David Wigler]

Tim,

I agree that #7 was awesome as well.  I was lucky enough to play it with a back left pin.  Go five feet past it and you go 30 yards down the hill. 

#4 was simply amazing.  Tough but fair drive that really had to be drawn of the bunkers on the right to a land between the bunker complex and then a long iron into a skyline green with a thousand foot drop that made the ball feel like it was in the air forever.  Simply a terrifying shot and so hard to keep your head down.  Good green with a small front pin placement and then a ridge and a wider back placement.  That second shot is as dramatic as any I have ever played that did not involve the Pacific Ocean in some way.  This hole blew me away.

[Phil Benedict]

Heck, Tiger could put up all the money himself, if he is that excited about the course's prospects for success.

Tom,

I've seen you write that Jack Nicklaus was good for other architects because he raised the bar for fees.  In the long run, assuming an economic recovery, is it better for the profession for Tiger to have successful design business charging huge fees?

Phil

[Tom_Doak]

Phil:

Tiger's reported fee was so much higher than anything else, that it is hard to think it would have any effect on the market price for anybody else.  Plus, it's likely unsustainable; if he is going to do more courses in the future, his fee will almost certainly have to get lower.

I am not sure it was better "for the profession" that fees got so high.  Better for the individuals, yes; better for the industry, maybe not, because big fees begat big budgets begat big problems.

Then again, when I looked through that bankruptcy filing and saw how much the project engineers and land planners were being paid, I didn't feel so bad about what I was charging.

[Richard Hetzel]

Are these developments ever done for the "spirit of the game" or are they just a big cash grab for everyone involved? Dumb question, I know.

[Garland Bayley]

...
#4 was simply amazing.  Tough but fair drive ...

What the heck does fair got to do with it?

[Jud_T]

I think we should start a betting pool on which, if any, of his designs actually gets finished and opens for play.....

[Roger Wolfe]

When is someone going to realize that rich people who buy retirement homes
in the NC mountains can't stand Tiger Woods??

[cary lichtenstein]

I think we should start a betting pool on which, if any, of his designs actually gets finished and opens for play.....

I want in on this pool. We could do an over/under on 1 course. Most would take the over I think   

What do u think? It could be that the Under might b e a better bet